What to expect?
Transcript
[00:00:01] Ally: The first thing I immediately felt was shame, but my body cannot do this. And I wanted to not tell anybody at work, but my instinct was to cover up wanting to have a baby because I think it's just ingrained in us that going on maternity is an inconvenience. It costs the company money.
[00:00:19] Ella: Welcome to Humans of Mews, part of The Future is Human podcast. I'm Ella McCann Tomlin, and this is where we surface the human stories that often go untold at work. The turning points, the unconventional past, the things that shape who we are beyond our job titles. These are the intimate conversations with people across Mews about their journeys told on their own terms.
[00:00:42] Ella: Welcome to The Future is Human. Today, we're joined by Ally Mitchell, who's the chief of staff to our Chief People Officer at Mews, and she's also a women's ERG ambassador, where she's helping shape people strategy, culture, and leadership. Ally has over 15 years of experience across recruitment, agile coaching, and people operations, and she's played a really pivotal role in growing teams, supporting leaders, and building systems that put people first. In this episode, we're focusing on motherhood at work. So, we're gonna explore how becoming a parent reshapes identity, ambition, and leadership, and also what modern tech-driven workplaces can do to better support working mothers. So hi, Ally. We're thrilled to have you on the show.
[00:01:26] Ally: Thank you. Well, I love the introduction.
[00:01:28] Ella: Thank you so much for being here. And I know that we work really closely together, and I know a lot about your journey. But for the listener, I guess, you've had a long career in recruitment and in people leadership, and then you became a mother. So, could you take us back a little bit to that moment of becoming a parent, and how did it change the way you thought about work and ambition and yourself?
[00:01:53] Ally: I think it's worth talking about before I became a mother because I actually put off having a child because I was worried about my career. And so I actually put it off, like, two years, and I kept pushing it off. So, yeah, it was a big thing when I finally became a mom. So, it's hard to say how it's completely changed.
[00:02:14] Ella: Yeah. But, also, by the way, I was actually gonna jump in and say, how did you, you said you put it off for two years, did you know that that's what you wanted to do, and you were just delaying the sort of inevitable? Or was that a period of going back and forth on whether it was something you wanted to do? Because I'm personally interested because I think I'm probably in that two-year period in a way now myself on a personal level.
[00:02:39] Ally: I knew I always wanted to be a mom, and I feel like it's just like you have, like, this yearning feeling to become a mom as well. I don't know if everyone feels like this, but definitely, like, in my 30s, I've got this, like, overwhelming urge to be a mother. But either I have anxiety, so I'm really, I'm not good with the unknowns, and I'm not good with, like, you know, doing something that I haven't done before. So, obviously, becoming a mum.
[00:03:11] Ella: It's the ultimate unknown.
[00:03:13] Ally: Ultimate unknown. And yeah, I just kept putting it off year after year. And then, I think it was 2023, I decided. At the end of 2022, I was like, okay, next year, we're gonna try. And it was almost a New Year’s resolution to be like, okay, let's try and have a baby. So, it did take some time to get to that moment to be like, yes, okay. I'm ready. I'm gonna try for it.
[00:03:40] Ella: And you said you put it off for a period of time. Now that you are a mother, has that experience so far shaped how you think about work or how you show up to work? What has shifted for you since then?
[00:03:54] Ally: So, I came back to work part-time. So, I work Monday to Thursday. So, obviously, going from working five days a week. And, also, I used to work, especially after lockdown, working in the evenings as well. So, I thought I would never stop. Not because work expected me to work those hours. It's just something that I would do. Like, I would just always work lots of hours because a workaholic. And I don't think that passion for work has gone away. I care just as much, and especially being high-functioning anxious, I have, like, a fear of failure. So, I'm always trying to, like, be the best I can be. But I guess becoming a mother, it helped me prioritise a lot better. And also working Monday to Thursday, you can't do everything. It's just physically not possible. And I can't work after hours because when I finish at 05:30, I have to go pick up Robin, then I have to get him to sleep. Sometimes he hasn't fallen asleep until, like, 9, 10 PM, and I have to do the laundry, have to cook dinner. Sometimes I get time to go to the gym, but not all the time. So, it just made me really good at, like, a hyper prioritisation and being able to organise my work a lot better. And also boundaries to say no to, like, what I can do and what I can't do. I use the Eisenhower matrix to help prioritise my work, and it just kind of taught me to be more visible and transparent to say to people, okay, this is what I can do this week, and this is what I can't do, and explain to people, like, my priority order. So, becoming a mom definitely helped me with that and to create boundaries at work because boundaries were definitely blurred before having a baby, I'd say.
[00:05:36] Ella: And for anyone who isn't familiar, could you explain a bit about what the Eisenhower matrix looks like?
[00:05:42] Ally: The Eisenhower matrix is a prioritisation framework. So, you have, in four quadrants, so, you know, you have a really urgent, like, high business impact.
[00:05:54] Ella: It is, like, urgent and important on the two axes.
[00:05:58] Ally: You got urgent and important in the red on this side, then you've got important but not urgent, which is your green. On the right, not important and urgent, which is blue, and then not important, nonurgent, in the bottom right corner. So, the ones in the bottom right corner just, like, don't even put them in a bin because they're not even worth it. And then the red is what I always do first, and then the blue, I try to delegate, and then the green, I move over to my red once I've completed the items in my red box. I am constantly doing that, and then when I have my one-to-ones with my manager, I'll go through, this is what I think my priorities are for this week.
[00:06:40] Ella: Just on that, because Mews is an environment, as we both know, where a lot of things can feel urgent and important all the time, and often more things than you necessarily can get to feel urgent and important. And I'm sure a lot of people listening will be in similar environments. How have you managed to kind of be ruthless about that? Because I think that's also something that I struggle with. Like, if I go through, you know this because you are always telling me to take things off my priority list and my project list and that I have too much, and I'm always saying, yes, I know. But all of these things are urgent, and they're all important. How do you manage that for yourself, and do you have any advice about how to be ruthless about that? And especially now that you're a mom, have you gotten better at being ruthless about that?
[00:07:22] Ally: No. Yeah. I am more ruthless, and I rank everything. So, there are always more important than others. And then there's also always opportunities to break stuff down. So, if you size it up, if you can, like, break down actually what needs to happen now and what you can do later, that will always work. But yeah. I mean, the other thing is getting, like, a second opinion as well. So, that person to challenge you, being like, is this business impact? Is this something that needs to happen now? Or is it something that you're doing to distract yourself from doing the other really horrible piece of work that you need to do? Like, slowly eating the frog. So, I like working this dog, so you get back dopamine here every time you tick something off, so breaking things down into smaller chunks. But yeah. And then, but often, then I find the stuff that I put in the green, which I think is important, but not urgent. And the green stuff sometimes just gets forgotten about, so it wasn't actually important, urgent at all.
[00:08:15] Ella: It's its own filter in a way.
[00:08:17] Ally: Yeah. And sometimes I look back, and I'm like, wow, I never got around to doing it, and it actually didn't matter kind of thing.
[00:08:22] Ella: And I know we've gone instantly almost into, like, prioritisation and how you manage your time and stuff. But to take a step back, before we started recording, and we were having a conversation about this conversation, you talked about your experience of going on maternity leave. And one of the things you said, which really sort of I thought was a very poignant image, was you talked about your work is a house, and it feels on maternity leave like you're locked out of the house and you're peeking in through the window. That sense of, I guess, FOMO, which is such a vivid image that I'm sure people can relate to. Can you talk a little bit about what that felt like before you returned to work, what that experience was like?
[00:09:02] Ally: Yeah. I mean, I'll give you a bit of context. So, my G date was November 11, and three weeks before, you were actually, you hadn't started, but you were present at this off-site. I was helping facilitate three day off-site in Croydon. And then I so I finished on Thursday, drove back on Friday, and then on Friday evening, my water broke. So, I wasn't planning to finish work for another two weeks. So, I hadn't even done a handover, and I was messaging Naomi, being as on Saturday, being like, oh, you were right. I'm having my baby now. And even then, I was, like, desperate to try and do some sort of, like, handover as I was going into labor, which is just now I look back on it. I was like, what was I doing? I should have just, like, really just focused on giving birth. And I just had these, like, words. I was like, oh, no, don't worry, because, like, I'll have the baby, and then I'll be able to work a little bit. Just done the off-site, and the next part was to write the strategy. And so I was gonna spend the next week creating the operating model and the strategy for 2024. So, basically, just did the off-site and was gone. So, that was really difficult because I felt, maybe it’s guilt, and just to caveat, this is nothing because of, like, what Mews does or because of the way of working in Mews. It's just how I feel, and I think everyone's experience is different and my relationship with work. And I was still trying to go to meetings in my first, like, two months of, like, being on maternity. And I remember doing calls, and I looked back and was like, what was I doing? Because my brain was just a mess of, like, hormones and emotions and not being able to make sense of anything. But, because of the way that I went on maternity, because I didn't have that prep, because it was so instant, which isn't good for me, and how I process things to go from work, water breaks, have a baby over the weekend, Monday, telling everyone I have a baby at work. I didn't have the downtime to get ready for maternity. I literally went from pregnant woman to a mom in the space of a weekend. And, yeah, I guess it did feel like yeah, it's like there's a party happening at your house, and you can't get in, and you have to watch it through the window. That's what it felt like. And I guess different people are different. It's like different people approach maternity, like, different ways. Like, some people go on maternity, and they just wanna switch off to the year and focus on their child. And I think that when you're doing your maternity leave, you have to have that conversation with your manager, like, what kind of maternity do you want? Do you want to be involved? Do you want to have updates? And either's fine.
[00:11:38] Ella: Did you do that, or is that just a learning that that's what you would do the second time around?
[00:11:43] Ally: If I were to go back in time and I was able to give myself a pep talk, I would tell myself to check in, but just try not to care so much. Like, I can't change anything. I can't influence, or I can't be, like, part of work while I'm caring for a newborn. I think I would have told myself to take a bit more of a step back, and it got easier as the maternity leave went on. But, yeah, I did arrange with Naomi before going on maternity, and I had, like, monthly check-ins with her, with Magda on my team. And then I had different people check in with me, like, once a month, to, like, tell me what's happening. But for me at the time, I didn't feel like it was enough. I wanted to be, like, more involved. Looking back, that was just me feeling anxious about, I’ve never had that much time off work before. Like, the most I've ever had off is two weeks because I come from a sales background. When I was working a sales role, I would never take more than a week off, because you would lose your pipeline and stuff. So, to take that much time off, it just felt really unnatural.
[00:12:44] Ella: It's quite a gendered experience, I guess, because we're talking about maternity leave here. And for the most part, in heterosexual couples or in scenarios where you have a birthing parent who's a woman, you take up to a year off, six months to a year off sometimes. And, you know, we've spoken about this before, the fact that I mean, paternity leave is woeful in a lot of countries, and that's sort of a separate conversation. I think in the UK, it's still two weeks that is the sort of standard paternity leave. But even if you have a good policy with extended paternity leave of a couple of months, it tends to be that women are taking the lion's share of that big bulk of time off in those kinds of relationship dynamics. And that also is interesting because we've seen Mews write that, like, actually, if a man is taking paternity leave, often, it's not such a stretch of time that there's even necessarily a replacement while he's gone. It's just like the team can handle it for the next couple of months. Whereas if we're talking about six months plus, we are talking about hiring mat cover and all of that kind of stuff. And I'm just wondering about to what extent that also changes that experience of feeling like you're locked out of the room and you're not inside it because you've got to come back in where somebody has taken on your work for that period of time.
[00:13:55] Ally: Yeah. It's scary. The other thing is I actually got cremated during my maternity, which I think is really probably quite rare and, like, was very grateful for that to happen. But there was someone who was doing my role while I was off. And so you do have these, like especially because of all the hormones, you're quite lack of sleep. Like, they say to sleep when the baby sleeps. You don't sleep when the baby sleeps. And you're up all night. You're exhausted. And you do get these, like, really negative thoughts of, oh, will they even need me? Now I'm gone. Will they even notice that, like, I'm not here anymore? Like, will I come back and realise they don't need me at all? Like, will they make me redundant when I come back? Is this person gonna be doing a better job than me? Like, all these, like, completely really horrible, like, negative thoughts while you're at home, like, trying to look after your baby. I mean, that's me. I don't think it's everyone, but it is quite a scary, scary time when you should be focusing on your baby. But you're right because, yeah, my husband had two weeks off. And I actually spent a week in the hospital as well because I also had psychosis after I had Robin from blood loss and lack of sleep. So, I was being monitored by a mental health midwife for a week after I gave birth. So, I wasn't allowed to leave the hospital. So, then by the time we came back home, I only had a week with my husband before he had to go back to work. So, it's the thing. So, it's like with the short paternity, it's different because different experience, because you don't need paternity cover for that period of time. But it's also hard when the woman does have, like, six months off and the husband only has two weeks because you're getting used to being a mom. You're not sleeping. It's almost like you're a single parent, but because James had to, like, move into a separate part of the house because he cannot be disturbed at night because he'd be working all day and because he also works with the U.S office. So, I was having to do all the nights, all the feeds by myself, and I'd only have a break at the weekends because James is working all the hours. So, yeah, there are two negative sides to the paternity because you do need help. Like, you do need help in that, like, the first few months. I mean, I didn't know, like, they should really tell you. I really didn't know you had to feed the baby every four hours. Like, it seems, like, really obvious, but I gave birth, and the midwife came in and was like, set your alarm for every four hours because that's how often you have to feed it. But there is so much that you don't really get told or talked about, or anything.
[00:16:29] Ella: I think that applies to a lot of things to do with women's health and women's bodies. It's a sort of, I think it's improving, it seems now, but there seems to have historically been a culture of not talking about what giving birth is like, not talking about what the aftermath can look like, not talking about different experiences for various, you know, complex reasons, but it does mean that a lot of people, I think, seemingly go into it without really knowing some of those key components, as you say.
[00:16:56] Ally: I didn't even really know how to change a nappy. I had a lack of sleep. Like, okay, I was like, I don't know how to do this. You should be able to change nappies.
[00:17:06] Ella: So, you mentioned when we spoke before that you came back to work in July, but you didn't get your brain back until, I think, February or March this year, so 2025. What do you mean by that? Because, obviously, you've been at work for quite a while then. And what was that experience like, of feeling like you weren't quite back?
[00:17:22] Ally: I didn't think I knew I wasn't back until my brain came back. So, I think it wasn't until, like, a reflection point to think, oh, gosh, I don't think my brain was working. I wasn't self-aware at the time of how my brain was feeling. I was actually reflecting on this last night. So, I came back to work in July, and my plan was to go to MewsCon.
[00:17:45] Ella: Which is our sort of the whole company event, a thousand people. And that was in July, last year.
[00:17:53] Ally: Yeah. That was in July. I had all my costumes ready because it was, like, 70s themed, so I've got all my hippie outfits ready. And, actually, now I'm thinking about it, I think that was crazy that I wanted to; my first thing to come back to was MewsCon. I think it was absolutely crazy. And, again, another thing I didn't know about is when your child first goes to nursery, how sick he will get. So, Robin had just done one week at nursery, and we all got a sickness bug. And I remember doing a voice note to Naomi, my manager, telling her that I was sick and I wasn't able to come to MewsCon, and I remember I was crying in the voice note, which I wouldn't do now, but I was I felt guilty. I felt like if I didn't go, it was gonna be, like, a negative on me, which is all just in my thoughts. Like, and I kept getting sick for, like, the first, I don't think you remember, I kept getting a sickness bug.
[00:18:52] Ella: I do vaguely remember that. Yeah. Yeah. But probably not as viscerally as you do.
[00:18:57] Ally: It was quite a shock for me. I didn't realise the sickness bugs that you get when your child, because it's the first time your child is exposed to being outside your house, and every time Robin would get ill and I would get ill, I would be, like, profoundly apologetic. I would feel really guilty. I would be like, oh, the company’s gonna think negatively about me. I felt like I was letting everything down. I was really, really, really panicked and really, really emotional. It's fine to be emotional. I was very emotional and put myself down quite a lot. And, actually, I remember I spoke to my manager at the time, and I said I feel bad for how sick I'm getting all the time. Like, I feel like it looks really bad. And then I got some, like, really good advice that you should never say sorry for when you're ill. It's just a fact. Like, my kid's sick. Fact. I'm ill. Fact. When you say sorry, it makes it almost like it feels like it's your fault that you're sick, and it's not a kind of thing, and it took me months to get to a point to actually be, like, to understand, like, sickness has happened, and it's nothing that I can do about it? And just to be, like, factual about it, I don't wanna say, but it does almost, like, come across a bit like a victim mentality. I don't know if that's something that I can say, but, like, when you understand your boundaries, and you understand, and you just say, I'm sick.
[00:20:32] Ella: Well, I suppose it's one of those things, and I think this applies to more than just being sick, doesn't it? Of those sorts of boundaries with work. And I think people, whoever you're communicating with, whether it's up or down or across, or it's your manager, they sort of take their cues from you in some sense. And so there can be that slightly counterintuitive thing when one communicates, which is, like, the more apologetic you are, the almost, like, worse it is because it almost invites a sense that I could be annoyed at you for being sick, when, actually, that's not even on the table. That's not even an option. It's like, of course, I'm not mad at you for being sick. But if you're sort of deeply, deeply apologetic about it, it sort of maybe invites that mentality more in an odd sort of way. So, it's really hard to do, to just be like, matter of fact, I'm not well, or I can't do this, or I can't commit to that because I know actually it's not gonna work, or, you know, I don't have the time for it anymore. Those kinds of things are really hard to get into a habit of doing.
[00:21:35] Ally: Yeah. And I actually, if I reflect on that, I think I've done this. I've always been very apologetic. I've always been sorry when things aren't my fault. I'd say sorry. And so trying to, and actually becoming a mom and being sick so much, to actually then have that advice and that feedback about not saying sorry has actually made me stronger in other areas where I actually just try not to apologise. As soon as you apologise, it's just, yeah, it's just the wrong vibe, so that really helped. It's not just the sicknesses. I think I went back to work at 9 months, and between, like, 9 months into 18 months longer, the sleep regressions, like, you're still learning how to be a mom. You're still learning how to put your child to sleep. You're learning how to get into a new routine. I need to exercise; otherwise, my anxiety gets really bad. I'm trying to, like, have my routine going to work with, I mean, a baby. You also have this immense guilt of sending your child off every day for someone else to care for them because, actually, I really enjoy it when Robin sleeps, and I really enjoy it when he's at nursery. But I also do feel guilty, and I get phlegm when I'm not around him. So, it's just weird.
[00:22:50] Ella: Guilty at work, guilty at home.
[00:22:53] Ally: I really do enjoy, like, the breaks. But, yeah, you are sleep deprived, and everything feels 10 times in your head. So, getting feedback can feel way harder. Depending on when you get the feedback, it can feel a lot more intense. It's hard to get to that rhythm. Right now, I've got a good thing of, like, working Monday to Thursday. I know how to prioritise. But for the first six months, I had to, like, relearn how to work again, like, because I had not worked while having a baby, and everything was new, and everything was, like, learning. So, your brain is going, like, you're thinking all the time, like, thinking, how do I put my child to sleep? How should I be feeding them? Am I giving them enough vegetables? But then also, I've got to do this at work, at this and work at this at work, and there's so much going on in your head all at once. I've got to do the food shop. Oh, I've got Robin's one-year check-in. I've gotta get him to the dentist for the first time. All while being sleep deprived, and it's just like there's so much going on in your head all at once. It almost feels like cotton wool.
[00:23:59] Ella: You're talking about so much of the complexity of what's happening for you while you're learning this whole new life-changing experience, whilst you're also trying to, let's say, reprove yourself at work and step back in a way that like, nothing's changed when that's not really possible because everything has changed. And to what extent, we're obviously talking about this as a very individual experience, but as you're talking about it, it sounds quite isolating. And this isn't a commentary on Mews in any way. It's just a commentary on, I guess, workplaces in general. Do you think there are more things that can be done to manage that transition back and sort of meet people where they are, because it's such an overhaul of everything you've known, and it sounds like it's quite something to go through almost alone as you're trying to kind of figure out how to come back.
[00:24:52] Ally: Yeah. I mean, I do think I have an advantage. I'm a really good manager, and, like, I honestly, I think I've changed so much in the last year from being open with them and telling them how I feel and them giving me advice, especially because they're a mom themselves and, you know, they've gone through similar. But I do think there's an opportunity to talk more and to have, like, buddies at work who are coming back or if there's, like, some sort of network that we could do when people, like, rejoin afterwards. Because I think it would have been really good if someone who'd come back six months before me, so I could have gone, my kid is vomiting all the time, and they'd be like, “Oh, yeah. That's totally normal. It goes on for about three to six months, and then you're fine, kind of thing.” So, if there's, like, one and, you know, someone that you can just talk to, just so you know that it's not just you that experiences it. And, also, like, again, I've got a really good manager, but they'd had the life experience. So, maybe there's more that we can do with managers to, it shouldn't just be on the, obviously, the employee. It should be the, you know, the manager as well, and have we got the right support system that managers know, you know, how to reintroduce someone back into the workforce after going on parental leave, creating that, like, open environment that you can say, hey, this is how I'm feeling.
[00:26:15] Ella: Because it's emotional support as well as, I guess, practical, logistical support simultaneously. And you've also just sort of, like, dropped in a couple of times, mentioned that you experience anxiety. You've mentioned to me in the past that you sort of call it home as, like, high-functioning anxiety. And sometimes when the balance feels right, you can almost lean into it, and it makes you focus. But, presumably, the scales tip at some point, and that can also be really a challenge to manage your responses to all of these experiences. Are you happy to share a little bit about how you sort of live with that side of things?
[00:26:52] Ally: Yeah. So, my anxiety has changed as I've gotten older. So, it hasn't changed. I've always had it, but the way I respond to it has changed. So, when I was early in my career, I was working in sales, which is probably one of the worst environments for anxiety. But you have, like, the fear of failure, which meant that I worked all the hours, which meant that I burnt out, which meant that I would be, like, striving for perfectionist, not because I want to be the best, but because I didn't wanna get fired and have the constant, like, what ifs. Like, what if I didn't make the sale? What if I don't hit my target of business development this week? What if this, what if this, what if this? And in the past, the anxiety, it would bring out very negative, like, feelings, and I would hit burnout, and I would be crying a lot. I would be physically and mentally exhausted. At the weekends, I would just have to, like, sleep for hours. But then, as I've gotten older, I've gotten better at understanding my anxiety. I've done CBT therapy, which has been really helpful. I had more therapy after I had Robin as well, which is actually quite helpful on maternity leave as well. And now my anxiety is never controlling and I still have spirals. There'll still be times where it particularly comes when it's something that I'm doing new for, like, the first time, and it's like the unknown, and the what-ifs get the better of me. And I start to spiral, and I get very negative, and I overthink. But I still work really hard. Like, I still work really hard during those times. And sometimes my output is better when I'm having, like, an anxiety spiral, but it's obviously not very, very healthy. But what I try to do is when I add those spirals, I recognise it now. And again, I got really good advice from my managers. It's not how you fall, it's how you pick yourself up afterwards. So, when before, when I'd have an anxiety spiral, I would, the time after the anxiety spiral would be even worse than being in it because I would remember everything that I did and every single detail, and I would overthink and analyse, like, what I've done during that anxiety spiral. And I'd be really worried, and I like feeling guilty and worrying what people thought about me, that people wouldn't like me anymore. And now I still have the anxiety spirals, but not as often as they were before, but now I try and spin it and try and think, okay, what have I learned from this? And then how can I? And, you know, what happens? And, you know, what can I do next time? What can I learn from this for the next time this scenario happens? And I try to change things into positives. So, instead of thinking, oh, I'm, you know, I'm worried, actually, I started changing the language. So being like, oh, actually, I have passion. So, I have a passion for work. So, I have passion, and I'm trying to make it more like it's excitement rather than it’s worry. And so I try to change the negativity to positivity. And the what-ifs are unhelpful, but the what-ifs can help you plan. So, it's like risks and mitigation, almost. So, you can go, what if this? And, like, okay, well, if this happens, then this is what I'll do.
[00:30:09] Ella: It can be a bit of something that you can use to your advantage, not necessarily the anxiety as such, but in a way, certain things give you certain skill sets. I can sort of relate to that based on some of my sort of childhood experiences and things like that. I'm a very hypervigilant person, which means that I can really sense the vibe of the room. I can really tell when people are paying attention, when they're not paying attention, when it's shifted, when it's not shifted. And that can be debilitating. When you're trying to do some public speaking, for instance, it's more natural to be like, I'm bringing this energy and whatever, and I'm more like that person over there is off. So, it can be debilitating, but at the same time, it also can be a bit of a skill to know, okay, pivot now because you've lost some people or because those experiences have given me that skill set. And I think there's a similar thing there, isn't it? But it's a difficult thing to balance because you don't want to go heavy into rumination and heavy into these things because it can paralyse.
[00:31:10] Ally: What I really struggle with at work is performance reviews because, actually, that's the ultimate unknown. Like, you do your performance review, and then you don't find out what you're getting for, like, what, can be like six weeks afterwards. And so you sit in six weeks of limbo, like, not knowing what grade you're gonna get. I don't know if there's something or if this is just me. Do you feel this too? That period of time really affects me. But, actually, I've had a chat with my manager, and I explained it to them. This is what happens to me when the performance review cycle happens. Because as soon as I found out my grade, whatever it is, I just move around for an enclosure. But it's the waiting and the not knowing that I play different scenarios in my brain. And so I've had that conversation with them, and they, in the next performance review, as soon as they've decided their rating, they're gonna tell me straight away, rather than waiting for, like, that official time of when you discuss your performance review, knowing your triggers. So, my trigger is, like, not knowing. If there are things that I don't know, and I know it's gonna help me making that known.
[00:32:12] Ella: There's a few things that play there in that example, isn't there? Because it's like you having the rapport and the, I guess, intimacy with your own manager to be able to say that, this is what this does to me, and this is the, you know, there's almost like a kind of baseline psychological safety for you to be able to say that. And then there is the almost situational leadership that she is applying, which is to say, okay, well, I know that this does this to you, and so, therefore, I'm going to tailor the approach to make sure that you're not sitting in six weeks of limbo, whereas, actually, with someone else, I don't need to do that. They don't care or whatever. And so I actually think that's a really good example of how you can start to navigate some of these things if you have a good relationship with your manager.
[00:32:54] Ally: It's the same with my period as well. I get really bad PMS the two days before my period, and I almost have to, like, block it out of my calendar. Because if I get feedback during that time, I will not be in a good place to receive that feedback. Like, whatever you tell me,
[00:33:10] Ella: It's just not gonna land.
[00:33:11] Ally: It's gonna land. I'm gonna go on the defensive. Like, you know, yeah. And so, yeah. But knowing that, and I think that's really important, like, when you're gonna give people feedback, you should always ask them, is this a good time, rather than just going out and saying it. Because, you know, you could be about to start your period, and it's not a good time.
[00:33:30] Ella: Not a good time. Yeah. Do you know what? I actually received some feedback before the end of the year, and it was perfectly fair feedback from a person that I like and trust and something I was already aware of. But, like, just because it was the end of the year, I was just like, I have 50 things I should be doing, and I'm gonna get to 15 of them before the end of the year, kind of thing, as is often the case. And I was just so overwhelmed running to sprint to get everything done. And, like, it just, I felt on the verge of tears when they were telling me this perfectly fair thing because I was like, I cannot take another thing. I can't take it. And I was just, that was just the mindset that I was in. I was just like, I can't have somebody tell me because I'm already thinking about all the things I should have done and haven't done. I was just so in that headspace that I just was like, this might be the thing that breaks me today. But I think you're totally right that it was just the wrong thing at the wrong time on the wrong day. And if people don't know, you know, she just came into that call being, like, I've got you know, this is on the agenda. I need to tell you about this thing. And especially when you're remote, I think people also don't always know or can't always tell. And now we've spoken a little bit about what organisations can do. And we've had this conversation also as part of the work that we're doing with the women's ERG. So, I'm obviously aware that you have experienced pregnancy loss whilst at Mews, and that's its own different type of absence and experience and something that is often very invisible at work. Can you tell us a bit about what navigating that was like?
[00:35:07] Ally: Yeah. It happened about three months ago. Well, first of all, everyone's loss is really different. So, I think my experience is that people have, like, miscarriages, like, obviously, I've had Robin already, so it's different for me because it was after already having a child. And, also, I was quite early, so I was seven weeks. And so I think everyone's experience is very personal to them. I was excited to have a second child. I even did, like, the how we found out on the cruise, and I did, like, the video of, like, filming my pregnancy test and surprising James, like, got all the excitement, like, the video of, like, he would be like, “What does this mean?” I was like, “It means we’re having a second child”, and we were really, really happy. And so, I remember it was a Friday when it happened, and I'm not going into details. I went to the toilet and realised what was happening. I remember running to my husband's office in the garden and being like, we need to call the hospital. And the first thing I immediately felt was shame that, like, my body cannot do this, and I wanted to not tell anybody at work, like, I was even thinking about that, she's just not keeping it a secret and not telling anyone I'm going through it because, I don't know, I didn't want people to put me in the category of, oh, Ally's trying to have a baby because we were excited, and we were really excited to have a second. But, like, I don't, you know, I don't know if we will have a second. Like, I don't know, I don't know if my body can have a second. I don't know that that'll be an opportunity that we have. And, like, a couple of people, when I told them, like, I've had a miscarriage, the first thing they were like, oh, are you trying? Are you trying to have a baby? And that was like, no. And even though Mews isn't like this, my instinct straightaway is to cover up wanting to have a baby kind of thing, or so just because Mews isn't like that, I think it's just ingrained in us that, like, going on maternity is like an inconvenience, and it costs the company money. And so as soon as the company knows that you wanna have another baby, that's negative. That's what my brain was thinking. So, I thought, okay, I have to hide this. But then I was in so much pain, and it was really upsetting that I, on the Monday morning, obviously, I told my manager straight away, and I told her I didn't wanna tell anyone else. I told one other person at work, takes me a while to process things. And then I think I said to you before, like, I see my life like a library, and these trauma incidences are like books. And once it's happened, it's kind of like a book in the library, so I can open up, read it, but it doesn't almost feel like me, it kind of feels like something that I've read. So, now I'm more open. That's why I'm more open about talking about it, but my first instinct was to cover up. And then, as I started learning more about miscarriages, I actually used ChatGPT and Reddit a lot. So, ChatGPT was a bit of, like, a life coach to me, and then I went into a lot of Reddit forums to read about other people's experiences. And it was actually the baby last week, the week that I had my miscarriage as well. And there were also podcasts, and my friends sent links to me because I didn't know, like, that one in four pregnancies are miscarriages. Even that sounds like 1 in 4 that like, but actually, when I was thinking about the statistics in my friend, I have a WhatsApp group called Girl Gang, and 3 out of 4 of us have had miscarriages. So, actually, like, that is, like, even crazier, like, when you put it to, like, the people that I know. So, 3 out of 4 of my friends, who all had babies, have had a miscarriage as well. And then the more I felt open to talk about it, the more people started telling me that they had miscarriages, and I just didn't even know. And, like, as I see. So, I started sharing more because I felt more comfortable about it, and I still got those questions, like, are you trying for another baby? And I was like, no. I don't know what I'm doing right now, but I felt more able to handle the response when people ask that question. But it just kind of, like, really opened my eyes to it. And the Reddit forum was really helpful because it helped me kind of trying to see as as, like, a as a positive, like I was saying before. And I know this isn't helpful for everyone, but I try to be positive about my body and be like, I'm proud of my body for getting rid of the nonviable pregnancy. And I think that's probably easier for me to do because I've already had a baby, and different people have different experiences. But when I kind of went into that mindset, it became easier to process the loss, although it's still hard to. I still have the video of me telling James on my phone. I haven't been able to delete that. So there are, like, there's sort of feelings there that just really made me aware of how much people don't talk about it. Because, like, yeah, the more I started talking about it, the more I found out more people have had miscarriages, and some people multiple miscarriages, and it is tough.
[00:40:11] Ella: It's often the case of these sorts of deeply personal experiences that it's a catch-22 in that, like, you know, it can be super isolating going through something on your own and then opening up about it. Suddenly, there's a sort of, the floodgates are open. You realise that, actually, so many other people have sort of experienced that and not been able to talk to anyone about it, and lots of different people have been suffering in silence.
[00:40:33] Ally: Yeah. I went to, so, I got my hair done before Christmas, and the girl told me that she was trying. And I said, oh, I said, I just had a miscarriage. She said, I've just had two. And we started talking about it, and she was like, oh, I'm so grateful for you, like, talking about it because I just don't know who I can talk to about it, and I haven't been able to talk to people about it. And that's it. That's even just me just talking to, like, my hairdresser to open up. I never knew that. So, I don't know. Hopefully, this will make other people be able to talk about it because it's hard. It's a really hard thing to do because, again, like, I was trying to work normally while going through it, but I just wasn't at a place where I could share it straight away.
[00:41:17] Ella: Understandably, though. I'm so grateful that you said, you know, we talked about this in advance, and you said, and you're quite open about the fact that you wanted to talk about it, but it's not common to talk about this kind of thing at work, nor in the context of a professional podcast. But, you know, we talked about the fact that it potentially could help people who have gone through something similar or who weren't sure how to talk about it. And as you say, once you started telling people, you then could connect with other people who'd been through something similar, who hadn't necessarily had anyone to talk to about it. So, I'm really grateful that you chose to, but, of course, there would have been no pressure to even tell anyone at work necessarily. You mentioned there that you were still trying to work through it, and, obviously, that's a pattern for you. But if you were to have another child, you also mentioned to me before that you don't think it would be the same kind of level of distress with some stuff that you've learned about it. What would you say has changed, and what would you potentially do now that you didn't do then?
[00:42:19] Ally: So, one of the main things is coming back to work. I only had childcare for Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday. I'm like, I couldn't get childcare for Wednesdays. And, also, my nursery that Robin went to was really bad. We had to move him to a new nursery. So, Wednesdays, I was trying to, like, always trying to find family or me or James would have me take, like, half days trying to work out. And I think Tasha did a talk in the women's ERG, which was really helpful about having your backups and having your backups and your backups, and you having created this, like, support circle because my family, they don't really help, and James's family lives in Wales. So, I didn't have any, like, kind of babysitting. But now I've got the nursery. I've got a childminder. I've got a babysitter, and I've got another babysitter. So, I've got a backup on my backups and my backups. And as of what happens, I've got somewhere to put Robin when I need to. And that was really difficult going back to work because I hadn't worked that out. I know that mentally in my head because I've experienced it. Yeah. Someone will do your job, but they're not gonna get rid of you. Like, you have skills. There are, you know, it's not about the time you're away. It's about what you do when you come back. And so, I think I would be able to, I still want to do my monthly meets, but I think I would be able to, like, take a step back and not get so, like, worried that I'm gonna be replaced just because I've gone through it and I've experienced now. I would start maternity leave earlier. I made a mistake thinking that I could work up until the baby was born. I was exhausted. I ended up having Robin three weeks early, so I would start my handover, like, six weeks before and start doing that wind-down to finish three, four weeks before the baby was born because, honestly, I didn't even just have my baby shower. So, when I came back, the house was just full of crap and boxes.
[00:44:20] Ella: You didn't get a chance to sort of ease into the experience?
[00:44:24] Ally: No. I literally went twenty-four hours. I went from working to becoming, like, a mom, and I really recommend, like, having at least, like, a week between having the baby, if you can predict that, having that time. Because I was exhausted, and I was huge as well.
[00:44:39] Ella: Well, I met you at that off-site. So, I met you, I think, a day before or two days before you gave birth, and, yeah, yeah, you were extremely pregnant.
[00:44:47] Ally: I was a pain because, like, Robin was kicking, he moved one of my ribs out. So I was like, I had one of my ribs, like, got moved out of place because he was kicking me, like, the whole time. He's off in my ribs. Yeah. So, I would make sure I would, yeah, I recommend anyone to make sure that they take off time before they they go on maternity, have that handover, you know, having the conversation with your manager of, like, what you want your maternity to be, like, and how you want to be, like, involved or not, having those backups on the backups, like, being prepared for the the sickness, being prepared for those horrible sickness bugs that you get. And, you know, like, I've learned so much. Like, I've learned not to apologise. I've learned that you know? And I've learned how to prioritise. I've learned how to create my boundaries now. I honestly feel better for becoming a mom. When I first went back, I was a shell of myself. I struggled in meetings. I found it hard to find my identity. But now I feel so much more confident. I've had so many opportunities. This year, I've had such a great year. I feel really grateful for everything that's happened. Like, you know, I even got to speak at Unfold, which is one of our big customer events. Like, I couldn't have dreamt of doing that, like a year ago. So it was, like, a hard transition period, but now I feel like I'm getting, like, more confident and, like, stronger. So, no, I had, like, having two as, like, a completely different ballgame. I had, like, well, having one's like a hobby, and having two is, like, so it's, like, maybe I'm disillusioned. But, again, I don't know if I will have a second. I don't know what will happen. But if I do have one, I do feel like a lot more prepared for, like, what will happen and what it would be like coming back to work.
[00:46:36] Ella: And on that note, maybe just to ask you a final question, because I know we've talked about what you would do differently. But is there a piece of advice or a warning or a habit of some kind that you would offer to leaders who are on the other side of this, i.e, they're trying to support people through the journey of parenthood at work? What's that piece that you think needs to happen?
[00:47:02] Ally: It's hard, isn't it? Because there's not a one-size-fits-all approach to all of these things. And I do think knowledge is good. So, like, understanding about miscarriages, understanding about being pregnant, understanding about the mom brain you get when you come back to work and while you're on, like, maternity. I think if there were, like, maybe more understanding, then different people have different approaches for different people. Like, I don't think maybe Naomi would say the same things to me as she would to someone else because I think she knows me. So, like, I don't want sympathy. I just want a matter-of-fact kind of thing because, that's because she knows me and she knows what I respond well to. It all starts with education first, knowing about these situations. What do you think?
[00:47:52] Ella: Thank you for asking me. I'm not a parent, so I have a very, like, work-based thought process about this. But as you were talking there, I was thinking, actually, I think a component of this is it's a human experience like so many other human experiences, and you don't necessarily have to experience that thing to understand that, let's say, as a manager or as a leader, that you need to be curious about what that experience is like for people in order to properly support them through it, which would also apply to bereavement and all kinds of loss, would also apply to lots of different human experiences, which don't necessarily sit within the workplace, but affects the people who are in your team or who you're leading. And so, I think, that was what occurred to me, is it's a human experience that people go through sometimes alone, or sometimes it's a very long journey for people that involves loss and involves lots of different elements. And then they're coming to work and trying to pretend that it's not going on or that it's not affecting them. And I think as leaders or as people who are, or just as colleagues, there's something there about, to your point about education, that doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna respond in the same way to all people. But if you don't even know what that looks like or what it might be like, or you can't lean into any kind of empathy about what that experience is like, then it's probably gonna mean you're not gonna approach it in as good of a way as you could do.
[00:49:15] Ally: No. I agree. We've come from it from, like, a woman’s angle of experience. But, yeah, like you said, there are life experiences that happen that people really don't share, but do a fudge when you're at work.
[00:49:27] Ella: Yeah. And so, hopefully, this will be one little thing that people could perhaps listen to as educational and as an insight into one person's experience of what this is like and what we could all sort of do better when it comes to supporting parents at work. So, I really appreciate you being so open, and so I knew you would be candid because you are that kind of personality, but I appreciate how candid and vulnerable you've been willing to be because I think it's gonna really help some people who wanna know more about this.
[00:49:57] Ally: Yeah. And like I said, like, that this is my experience and, like, everyone's experience when it comes to pregnancy, birth, maternity, baby losses is so individual, and so different experiences. Well, thank you.
[00:50:10] Ella: I have learned a lot from everything you've said, so I really appreciate it. And thank you so much for joining.
[00:50:17] Ally: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
[00:50:21] Ella: The Future is Human is brought to you by Mews. If you want to learn more about what we do, visit mews.com. And if this conversation resonated, you can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen. Hit subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Thanks for listening.
