The Value Of Play And Creativity At Work ft. Preben Arentoft

[00:00:01] Preben: To be able to go to work every day, it has to be fun in certain ways. If you can laugh together as humans, it not only does something to our bodies and our blood pressure, but it also can help make people feel safe, especially in environments where work is complex. If we can have a sense of play and permission to ask strange questions, conversation flows better and easier between people.

[00:00:29] Naomi: Welcome to The Future is Human. I'm Naomi Tricke. And in this podcast, I talk with leaders from tech and hospitality businesses about how both they and their people are navigating the edge between humans and technology in an increasingly automated environment. We break out of the mould of a standard business conversation to hear more informal perspectives and reflections, to understand what people are really feeling about the future of work.

[00:00:57] Naomi: Hello. Hello. Welcome to The Future is Human. Today, I'm really delighted to be joined by Preben Arentoft, quite possibly the most unusual name we will have on the show. Preben is a senior agile coach at the LEGO Group, and your work focuses, as far as I understand it, on helping teams and leaders unlock their full potential. And you do that by fostering environments of sort of all those good human qualities like collaboration, and trust, and curiosity. And I know that you're dedicated to removing obstacles and challenging what you call anti-patterns, which I'm gonna ask you about, but also empowering teams to deliver meaningful user and business value. So, I think why I asked you to go on the show is because you champion progress, but also the joy of building it together. And in a world where technology shapes how we work, I think helping teams to stay grounded in the human side of work is exactly what we're trying to explore here. So, I'm really thrilled to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me.

[00:01:58] Preben: Thanks for having me.

[00:01:59] Naomi: No problem. So, let's kick off. Was there a moment that first sparked your passion for coaching and unlocking the potential in others? I mean, how does one become an agile coach? It's one of those jobs that didn't used to exist, and now it suddenly exists. Talk us through it.

[00:02:17] Preben: That's a good question. There are many ways to become an agile coach. I think for me, I have to go way back because my dad was, I think, Denmark's first professional soccer player and actually in England, in the UK. And so I've grown up with him being a coach for soccer teams or football teams, and I think I learned there, playing football, that it's the team thing. When people come together, and then they understand what they need to do together, things happen, right? So, I've lived with that most of my childhood, teenage years, basically, and that's formed my interest, I think. So, my story is that in all my jobs, I've been some sort of coordinator between different functions. So, yeah, I've been a leader, a project manager. I've been a consultant. So, it's always been working with others to achieve something, right? So, that was my entry into it. A project manager then became a scrum master, and then it was natural to become an agile coach after that. What I see from my colleagues is that they have equal, very different backgrounds. Some have been engineers, and they want to move into the more, I think people probably call it the softer side of things that is about helping people have conversations about work and how we get to somewhere by helping each other, by doing that. Most people have been project managers. There's definitely a trend there that you have some background in having an overview about what's going on and having to translate between stakeholders in many different functions, right, because people speak very differently about things. They think they talk about the same, but they rarely do, right? So, yeah, many different ways to become an agile coach. I think what is the same for everybody, you need to be able to understand what goes on between humans, basically. That's a big part of it.

[00:04:08] Naomi: And it's not the softer stuff at all, is it, really? It's this notion of soft and hard, I always find a bit challenging, really, because there's nothing as complicated as a person.

[00:04:18] Preben: No. And especially team dynamics and dynamics between different teams, there's a lot going on there, right?

[00:04:25] Naomi: I'm interested, actually. The team dynamic is one. We often focus on individual performance, but actually, I think this team dynamic is something that is really gaining traction, particularly in the tech industry, that we need to be looking at team effectiveness, not just individual effectiveness, and team effectiveness not just as the sum of the individuals, but it has its own value as a unit, right?

[00:04:52] Preben: Yeah.

[00:04:53] Naomi: And what relevance does the environment in which you operate have on your work? Does the organisational culture in large companies that you've worked in shape how you approach agile coaching?

[00:05:05] Preben: Yeah. I think it does. I think the last 5 to 6 years, I've been in three very large companies in Denmark, and their portfolio of products were very different, meaning that they were having a very different way of working and culture also. I think it does definitely mean something on how I approach people in teams and leaders. I can give an example. Maybe in some organisations, there might not be a culture of trust, for instance, especially maybe in the engineering department. I've seen that at least. If there's no trust, that definitely means that I need to be aware of at least trying to create an environment, maybe on a micro level, for team members to have an idea that they can speak freely about stuff they might perceive as difficult in that culture. So, I try to be aware of that by observing how people speak to each other and what are they measured by and what is the pressure going on. How do we think about the work we do? That's also part of the culture. Do people have fun, for instance? In some cultures, that is more acceptable than it is in other cultures. I've worked in a bank, for instance. That's a different approach to that kind. It was also a very old company, so there's something there that is different from other companies, I think.

[00:06:23] Naomi: That's interesting. Let's dig a little bit into that. What have you learned about how fun or playfulness impacts the way teams work and grow? Because some of our conversations have been about the nature of play. I'm really fascinated by that. I don't think that's something that comes up terribly often in conversations about work culture. And I'd love to know some of the lessons that you've learned about the value of fun and play as it relates to teams and their growth.

[00:06:50] Preben: I think it's super important, and that may be, my view on that is based on that. I think to be able to go to work every day, it has to be fun in certain ways. Fun can be many things for many people, right? But I at least try to infuse that in the approach I have to other people. I mean, I think it's super important to laugh every day, for instance. I think I've experienced that if you can laugh together as humans, it not only does something to our bodies and our blood pressure and the way we breathe and stuff like that, but it also can help make people feel safe. And I think that's super important, especially in environments where work is complex, right? Problems are hard. Some problems cannot be solved. You have to understand what's going on. But that means that if we can have a sense of we allow to play with the way we work, I mean, that can mean many things, then it becomes easier. I've certainly seen that when that is there, a sense of play and permission also to ask strange questions, stuff like that, something happens. Conversation flows better and easier, right, between people, and that leads to lots of other good things in terms of people connecting and understanding each other. I mean, everybody can laugh about something, and it is a very human thing, I think. I think that's super important. And if I can be the, I'll call it, the facilitator of allowing people to have fun in the sessions where we are trying to achieve something together, then that's better, right? And I do different things to try and facilitate that.

[00:08:22] Naomi: So, let's go into that. So, how do you integrate fun into sort of serious business goals in a way that actually improves accountability and performance? What are some of the things that an agile coach does?

[00:08:34] Preben: I think I try to infuse fun into when we talk about work, because I think the goals are set in certain ways. We cannot change them. But if people can have fun in the way they try to work towards those goals, I think they will get there faster. They will probably also create a better solution, and I do that in different ways. I think I use myself as an example. Right? I make jokes. I also try to tell stories about how I learn and fail and stuff and make it superhuman that, oh, this is allowed. I mean, if things are difficult, things are complex, we cannot be expecting to be perfect or successful all the time. But the consequence of failing is that we learn something, and that is what we want. So, I think I've tried to paint a picture that is supernatural. We cannot be super good at something we haven't tried yet. And if we can laugh and maybe make jokes about the way we find that out, that helps, I think. As a facilitator, I also have a lot of exercises and energisers and stuff like that that can help that conversation and that environment take place.

[00:09:42] Naomi: Do people resist it?

[00:09:43] Preben: Some do. I've always had a challenge with developers, and I think, especially as a project manager, I've always been met by developers with a certain scepticism. And, I mean, I think people, a lot of developers, especially have experience with project managers coming and telling them that they need to get things done. You need to finish this. Right? You need to move faster and stuff. And I understand that, and that's fine. But that is where I can actually see some opportunities about that most of the stuff I say in my function as a coach, a scrum master, or a leader, or a project manager is well, I try to say we need to get over there. This is what we want to achieve there, but you know better than I how to get there. So, I am going to help you in any way I can to get over there to that goal. And when people find that out, then they trust me, and then something changes. But there are always some that might not be super interested in the concept of having fun, and I try then to balance it out so it doesn't become silly. I don't think you should be silly. It's not about having fun all the time. It is about being serious and achieving something together, but we can do that in many different ways, right? So, I also try to respect that people might not be really interested that day to be silly or have fun, and that's fine.

[00:11:02] Naomi: And I think, ultimately, it's about creating business value. That's what we're all here to do. And I also think there's something in sort of organisational cadence, the speed at which we're expected to work, where we need to balance that speed with quality. We're in a world now that's obsessed with speed, output, automation, and so on. How do you balance quality with automation? How do you think about that in your work? Is it about slowing down, or is it about applying curate, like, what would you do?

[00:11:36] Preben: It very much depends on the context. When I was a project manager, we would sometimes end up in a place where now we need to deliver, now something needs to get out to a customer in order for them to try it out and stuff, and that would, I mean, our concentration, our focus would automatically change. So, we would change our rituals. We would change the way we work, and we would be very focused. And then when we had delivered, things would change again, right? So, it's all about the context you're in. It's kind of you need to have situational awareness to know, especially me, when I'm an enabler of some sort. So, I need to be aware when it fits and when it doesn't and when it helps things move along and when it doesn't. So, sometimes I'm kind of orchestrating stuff with the conversations and the questions I ask. And the focus I try to, I think, help direct people's attention to what is important or at least help them have conversations about what they think needs to happen right now and how we get to do that, right? So, sometimes I'm super active and very visible, and sometimes I step back. So, people actually don't really see I'm there, I think, but I can use conversation and questions to then keep the focus where it needs to be.

[00:12:53] Naomi: I really like that. And I think that's something very important for leaders to appreciate that sometimes you have to be right at the front, sometimes you have to be in the middle, sometimes you have to be right at the back and completely invisible. And it's knowing at what point it's appropriate to take those different sorts of roles. I think that's really, really a great insight. And as you say, context is critical for determining when that moment is. So, there's something else in what you've said about sort of curiosity. And I know that curiosity and creativity play a big role in your coaching philosophy, as well as your working environment, the specific work environments that you find yourself in. Whilst recognising there's a role for leaders to be curious and drive creativity and do it in different ways, as we've just said. How do you cultivate things like curiosity and creativity in teams that are pressured to deliver rather than taking time to explore? What do you do?

[00:13:56] Preben: I think questions are my tool of choice always because I can inspire a view, a perspective on things, but that comes out as questions, basically. So, when I say questions, it's also me trying to be aware of what are the lenses people are looking through, because a product manager does have a different view, and a difference that they have to be accountable for different things than the engineers have to be. So, I think I practice to have an awareness of where are people coming from, what do they think is difficult, where's their view on what we need to achieve together, and I use that awareness and that knowledge. Fortunately, I'm really good at remembering stuff people tell me about their own thinking and stuff like that. And that comes in really handy in the context I work in because I use that to have conversations about that. So, it's also kind of a play with people, and you make agreements in some sense, or can we do this? And I try to model curiosity. And why curiosity is important, right, because it is when we start asking questions about why are we doing this? What are we trying to achieve? What is it that stands in our way? Is this the right thing to do, or should it be this thing in the stand right? So, I find when I model that, I also poke the environment, so to speak, in terms that we are allowed to think about what we're doing. And in that space, we can play with different opportunities and maybe also play with the way we look at challenges and maybe help break them down into something we can manage and understand, right? That was a long answer. But, I mean, questions are the ultimate tool for someone like me, right, too. Because they also create awareness. They can also spark imagination, because sometimes people in groups are so focused on what they're trying to achieve that they miss some other opportunities.

[00:15:59] Naomi: I absolutely love that point. I'm just making a note of it that questions spark the imagination because they encourage people to go on a slightly different tack, don't they? A slightly different direction. But I also think what you're talking about is the quality of listening, because a good listener knows the questions to ask. If you're not listening, you're just listening to speak; that's not good listening. But listening to know what question to ask someone to move them forward is very skilful, I think, in my opinion.

[00:16:34] Preben: I find in many environments that we have learned when we go to work that we have to do it in a special way. I mean, we have interpretations of what is expected of us, right? So, I also try to challenge those unseen expectations in order for people, or at least to try and maybe challenge people's way of looking at how things can be done, and maybe also get people aligned on their perception of what it is we're trying to achieve. Because everybody sees things super differently, right? An engineer will look at the problem in a different way than a product manager looks at it. And it's super important that they are aligned in understanding what is it they're trying to solve, what is the problem actually. And when that happens, then the conversation is entirely different, and then we can start focusing on the right things. I think when we get to that point, there's an element that we can do all kinds of stuff that enables us. And I think that sparks creativity because then you're suddenly allowed, oh, but could we do it like this then instead of the other way? I see that happen. But it does take time, and it depends on other things, like, are we together in a room, or is it in a virtual meeting, because those are two very different dynamics. And you said something about listening. I also find that many people have not really learned to listen. What they do is that they are getting ready to answer instead of listening to understand. So, my job is also to catch that. And sometimes when I work with leaders, I know they're extremely pressured. They have meetings all day round, all the time. So, I try, if I can, to slow things down, to get them to breathe slower, and then also try to create an expectation that we're here to talk together, to have conversations, but that also means you have to listen instead of speaking. Because I also find that many leaders, the role they're in, the context they're in, it is expected that they are the ones speaking most of the time, right? Verifying goals, assessing direction, telling, informing employees what is happening around them, but that means that they often are in that role that they're speaking all the time. So, when they get together, they kind of battle in a way, right? So, they stop listening because they're used to speaking. So, there's a dynamic there.

[00:18:59] Naomi: That's super interesting. I hadn't really thought about that before, and I'm reflecting on my own behaviour now. I think what I made a note of is that notion of challenging expectations and using questions to challenge expectations. And one of those expectations is around one's own position in the room and one's own ego, which you're talking about having to challenge, I think. Gonna sort of take a slightly different angle now, is my next question, but it is related, I think, in that you and I, when we first met on a course a few months ago, one of the things that we really clicked around was flipping the future, where we were encouraged to flip assumptions about the future, so challenge our own expectations, essentially. And one of the things that we were talking about was the importance of play and whether that might change in the future, and maybe some dystopian version of that future. I'd love to know you've mentioned joyfulness, play, challenging expectations, that kind of dynamic, that very lively dynamic. What does play mean to you in an increasingly automated world? And do you actually think it's changing? And how do we navigate that? Because I want to hold on to the assumption that play will continue to be an important component of creativity and of getting things done. But what does it mean to you in an automated world?

[00:20:21] Preben: For me, play is something that hopefully should happen naturally, right? It's something that we can be spontaneous about. It doesn't have rules. It can be many things, and that's super vague. So, for me, as a coach, it would be in my tasks and what I am trying to achieve or help people with. It's something about maybe addressing what is the playing field. What does that look like? What are we allowed to do? How much freedom do we have to do in this space we're in? Right? So, now I'm imagining that I am together with a team that will be between 6 and 8 people. They have two functions. But I can throw something out there and say, "Hey, let's try this." So, that would be play in a professional setting, right? Play can be many things. It can happen all the time. I think we, as grown-ups, forget to play. I mean, I have colleagues that really like to play with cards, or they have board games, right? And that's one way to do that. That's in a setting. That's usually something you do in your spare time or in social rituals. But that spontaneous creative thing that can happen out of the blue, that needs to, I think we're not good at that. We are too busy. We are too attached to our devices. I think that is what I fear, that play has probably changed in maybe the last 15 years, 20 years maybe. I mean, I think people get attached to social media, right? So, we end up with this dopamine thing where we can scroll stuff and see content, and that is cool. There's lots of great content. But it also does take our focus away from play, which should happen between people in a physical setting, most often for me. I've seen teams be really good at planning rituals, that is, play for them. So, I worked with a team that every Thursday, they would start at 1 O'clock, and they would play GeoGuessr, which is an online game, then they would do a puzzle together online also, and they would have a physical puzzle or jigsaw puzzle on their table. So, they would also do that. So, I think it could be many things. I think we will never lose the ability to play. I think it's supernatural for us to do. But that does seem to happen, something that we forget when we become teens and grown-ups. It does become less natural, and we don't plan it and give ourselves permission to do it, I think.

[00:22:54] Naomi: Yeah. That's so interesting, the way you started talking about play, as it sounds to me it's an opportunity to test boundaries, isn't it? Play, which in a way that we don't, as adults, often have the opportunity to do because we can adopt different personas or adopt different roles, that I think, or just kind of move in slightly spontaneous, unusual directions in a game, in a way that we don't allow ourselves to do in real life. That's so interesting. Last time we talked, we considered the increasing invisibility of tech in our lives. It's becoming ever more seamless, and this idea of AI becoming the new UI. And increasing, as you've just said, we sort of interface with the world through invisible and tangible tech. So, I wanna go back to something that you talked about, people getting around a table with a jigsaw puzzle, which, by the way, like, I am all over jigsaw puzzles. I love them. What role does material play, whether it's a building block or face-to-face contact? What role does material play, so to speak, in this new invisible tech world? Is material still relevant?

[00:24:05] Preben: I mean, we experience the world through our senses, and we do that very differently, human to human. But I think that tangible experience that you can touch something, right? You can see it. It has colour. It might be of a material that changes when you do something to it, and you can maybe put it together in different ways and stuff like that. I think that's super important that it is material, that it is tangible, that you can do something with it. I mean, something happens when you touch something, and you move it around. I mean, you mentioned a jigsaw puzzle. What goes on when you're trying to find out where that fits? You can look at it. You use your eyesight to determine, oh, it looks like this, and then you actually, I think what you do is you look for a pattern, right? Where does this fit in somewhere? I mean, just that is super important, right? What happens when you do that? I think your breathing slows down. You become aware. Your cognitive apparatus kind of goes into overdrive because you're actually trying to create some kind of solution that might not be clear when you're doing it, right? And that could be doing something with paper. I think I've done an exercise with teams where you build a paper plane, for instance. But something happens when you have something in your hands, or you're looking at something. That activates our senses. And I think when that happens, we become grounded in the present. So, it's not about what happens tomorrow or what happened yesterday, but play actually or the physical thing brings us into the present right now. So, I'm here, I'm doing this, but I think I've become aware in a different way that there's a connection that happens between the physical thing and the way I'm thinking.

[00:25:46] Naomi: It's quite a sort of meditative spiritual answer in some ways. It's like a philosophy for life, really. I love that. Thank you. And you were talking about patterns. I wanna talk a bit now about developing people. And one of the things that you have mentioned to me is this idea of anti-patterns. So, you, as far as I understand it, strive to be a servant leader, eliminate obstacles and anti-patterns. I don't know what an anti-pattern is. What is it, and what is one that you see most often in organisations, and how do you help people to break out of it?

[00:26:22] Preben: The way I try to explain to others is that it can be a way we are working that is not actually helping us move forward. What could be an example of that? It could be a simple meeting where we need to exchange views on how it's going. That can be done in a very rigid way that doesn't allow conversation to flow. So, me seeing this happen, I would call that an anti-pattern. I would try to call it out in a way, so I'm not telling people they're doing it wrong. But, I mean, it depends on the people I'm with and the context I'm in. So, I would try to explain it in a way that they become aware that this is happening because people are often not aware because they are so focused on their work. And we have a thing as humans that we fall into, I think, a trap of we have the same rituals, and then we repeat them because we've become accustomed to just doing that. But then we forget that sometimes these rituals are not actually helping us.

[00:27:26] Naomi: Interesting. It is that friction that we were talking about earlier, right? Sometimes it's good friction, and sometimes it's bad friction. And I'm sure you've come across that concept. There's the book by, I think, Bob Sutton, and it's a great book. If you haven't read it, I'll mention it in the show notes, but it talks about the concept of good friction, which is interesting. And so I think what I hear from you is that you believe that people have this potential within themselves, within their teams, to be tapped into. What helps teams unlock that potential, especially, I suppose, in a hybrid or digitally isolated environment? You must have to work in that context as well as in a physical space. Let's move towards that remote space. What does that look like, and how do you unlock people's potential in that context?

[00:28:15] Preben: I think you have to recognise what the potential could be. I have to be a bit cheeky sometimes, also, right? I mean, because people might not be seeing their own potential because we also become accustomed to the system we are working in, right, and the culture we're working in. Is it allowed to think big? What happens if you try to experiment? Stuff like that, right? But it is in that space that potential unfolds itself. There's also our own comfort zone, right, that we might be afraid to try that. So, I think when I recognise that some people have something in front of them that they cannot see, I ask questions about it. And, especially, I ask, but what if we could do it this way? Or what would happen if we did it this way? So, it becomes a non-threatening question, but it also sparks, hopefully, different ways of thinking about what we're doing. So, it is something about helping people to explore possibilities, I think, because they need to understand what the potential is. They also need to understand that there's something in going towards that potential. There needs to be something of value for them to do it individually, and super difficult in the team setting to do that. But if the setting is right, you have established a safe environment to be able to speak about things in an authentic manner. It can happen. I mean, I think then I also become very much a coach by using humour, you know, friendly provocation about, "Hey, but you could do this. Right? I mean, what would happen if you didn't do this?" I try to make fun of things, also, to make it lighter to talk about, depending on what culture this team is in. And I praise, I mean, a part of this is also that people need to believe that they can reach that potential for them to take the first few steps towards it, right? So, it's also about me recognising the effort people put in their work every day. And I point that out. I make it very concrete, but I saw you did that thing. I mean, the way you reach that, could we look at that? Could you do that again in a different way? Could you use what you learned in that situation and take it over here and do something? So, it really depends on the group, the environment, and the individuals that are there. So, this time scope, right, because it is. Reaching a potential means also that you have to invest something to get there. Meaning, you have to leave something behind, and some people can have a belief that it takes a lot of work to get there. So, it comes down to the conversation again, right? And trying to paint pictures of what can what could be. Maybe also using the contrast of where we are now and where we could be and what is in between that present state and the future state, there's something there.

[00:31:04] Naomi: Yeah. There is. And I think it's also about shifting away from tools and frameworks and towards behaviour and collaboration. And how do you shift the focus from process to people in an agile context? How do you do that? Is it about asking the right questions? Is it about challenging people? Is it about all of everything that we've talked about today, really?

[00:31:27] Preben: I think it's many things. And, again, the standard agile enabler role thing to do is, it depends, right? That is what we're known for. Because I think it is about you have to be aware of what are the surroundings right now, what are the constraints, what are our capabilities, and have that kind of conversation. Because people also need to be motivated, and I think that there needs to be value for every individual when they go to work. They might not be conscious of this, but you can never get people to do anything or change into something else if there's not a value for them in it. And I think that is probably why a lot of change is hard because we don't recognise that there needs to be something to motivate us, and that is individual, right? And I think there might be a perception that is difficult to scale, right? But I think it can be achieved to play that thing into people's awareness. I believe people want to go home for work feeling they've contributed. I also think they want to go home for work feeling proud of what they have shared and done with others. I think a lot of organisations, if they could be better at helping people get to that point where they're able to actually do that, we would see magical results, better environments, and more trust. And I see it in pockets, definitely in different companies, when that happened.

[00:32:50] Naomi: Thank you. Yeah. It's a very powerful thing. And okay, I'm gonna ask you some rapid-fire questions now. So, maybe off the back of what you've just said, actually, if every team had to adopt one mindset tomorrow, what would you choose for them?

[00:33:04] Preben: In the world we live in now, which is so fast-moving, rapid change, a lot of change, I think continuous learning. What that means, that is we have to unlearn something and move on and learn something new, and that has to be a cycle, I think, especially now, where it seems like AI is going to change a lot. I think it's necessary.

[00:33:24] Naomi: Yes. I love that. What's your go-to move when a team feels stuck or loses a bit of confidence?

[00:33:31] Preben: I think some of the stuff I said before about having conversations about what's possible, finding the root of what makes people stuck. The short answer would be, I've been in that situation before. Lots of teams simply don't accomplish anything, right? They stock it for different reasons, and they stop believing. They stop talking to each other, and they work as individuals in a team. So, it's about finding out what is actually wrong and then helping move it along and solve it, maybe, and also getting people to believe again. I think that's super important. And, also, again, back to painting the picture that you mean something. Your knowledge, your experience, your effort, that means something. I try to really take that seriously and make people aware of that. They're here for a reason, and they play a part.

[00:34:16] Naomi: Yeah. I think it makes a big difference to people, doesn't it? And what's a creative way you help teams bring more accountability without adding pressure?

[00:34:26] Preben: There is something I call the integrity of collaboration. If we are together in any situation as humans, something is expected of us together. There needs to be a set of agreements. I mean, it doesn't need to be on a poster or something, but there needs to be an alignment of what we can do together in some sense and how we do that together. It doesn't need to be difficult, but there needs to be a conversation and an agreement in a way to do that. And then I think accountability comes from when we, as a group, start living up to those agreements.

[00:35:03] Naomi: I think that sort of shared sense of purpose, essentially.

[00:35:07] Preben: Yeah. It's also making our expectations to each other clear and get them aligned because, again, we have different lenses, and we view the world with very different perspectives, right? So, making that more clear to everybody, making it simple so we can remember it and understand it, then something happens. It does change. I have seen it change in teams.

[00:35:29] Naomi: Yeah. And, essentially, it's not a particularly creative act in and of itself, but it facilitates creativity. So, we're moving towards the end now. I'm gonna just ask a few closing questions. If you could give every leader one piece of advice about unlocking team potential, what would it be?

[00:35:48] Preben: I've said it earlier in our conversation. I think what I say to some leaders is that I advise them to say thank you for people's effort. It's a simple thing. Everybody can do it, but say thank you for the effort. Because what you do when you say thank you is you recognise that someone has done something, and that's much more powerful than acknowledging a result instead. And it could be small things that you see that someone in a team, for instance, gets coffee for others, or they brought a cake, stuff like that. That's the small things. But it could also be different things. But just noticing that someone did something to avoid something bad happening, it could be any kind of thing, right, but if you can describe that and you could say it out loud in a concrete manner, it creates instant motivation. It also sends a signal that I, as a leader, have seen and heard what you do. I understand your situation, your context. That is so powerful. And I am always amazed by how many of these leaders either forget it or don't do it. And it can be something about them having too much on their plate, and they're too busy, so they don't have the ability or the attention to see those things going on. But those leaders who do that, that is powerful.

[00:37:05] Naomi: It goes back to that point about listening, doesn't it? It's also about noticing and really paying attention to the world around you.

[00:37:12] Preben: And it is a very human thing because it also, I think, creates a sense of we are together in this. We have a connection about something, right? And it is super important to feel that you are being heard and you are being understood, also. I think something that goes on in modern organisations. That connection is lost many times, but that is something I say to most leaders when I get a chance to have a conversation, and that is what I offer, and then start doing that, and you'll see something different happen.

[00:37:42] Naomi: Interesting. And what's one aspect of the workplace you'd never automate? Therefore, is it that? Is it the saying thank you?

[00:37:48] Preben: I would say that it's something about giving people space in some ways, that I mean, I was thinking of saying giving people freedom to explore because I think that's super important. That is how we become innovative. I mean, exploring means experimenting. We try something out. It doesn't work. But then we have learned something, and then we try something different. That can never be automated, right, or it shouldn't. There's a consequence when we automate that kind of working, I think, because we will not discover things that emerge in human systems.

[00:38:19] Naomi: Yeah. It's that happenstance, isn't it, that you can't predict?

[00:38:23] Preben: I mean, when you give people space and time and permission to explore, is the right word, serendipity? Something happens right that you could not plan for, but it happens because certain elements in the context somehow mix in a certain way that I saw happen. Oh, I would not have known that if I didn't exactly have the time and space to do what I did. And it connects to creativity also, right?

[00:38:45] Naomi: It does. Yeah. And play, for sure. And so final question, looking ahead, what excites you most about building human-centred teams in a sort of tech-driven, automated AI, we're all going to be taken over by robots future?

[00:39:02] Preben: To me, it's clear that work as we understand it will change. I mean, when intelligence becomes available and extremely cheap, I mean, we cannot compete. I think that's clear right now. But what I think we can compete with that is our creativity because we've come so far. I mean, we've been through all kinds of challenges the last 50,000 years, and we're still here. And I think actually that AI and the challenges becoming so cheap and available to everybody is going to mean that people will have to practice being creative and what that means. I think we've lost it. I mean, I think we're born with it, but certain things in our lives and the way we are taught and the systems we're in take it away. I mean, it also connects to the thing we talked about with play. We forget to prioritise that as grown-ups. But I think we will find out during the next 10 to 15 years that we need to practice being creative and having space to come up with stuff that a machine cannot. And I think we can do that. I think that what is happening with AI will enable that, but it's gonna be a transition period when people understand, oh, they will have to actually learn what it means to be creative. I think it will change our educational systems, also.

[00:40:16] Naomi: I think that's absolutely right. We're going to learn what it means to be differentiated from machines. And thank you, Preben. It's been a really fascinating and very sort of thoughtful conversation. I think that idea about the central role that creativity is gonna continue to play in our work and in unlocking people's potential is a message that lots of people need to hear. And I also loved what you had to say about testing boundaries and using play and creativity as a means of testing those boundaries towards driving business success. You know, it's not just for the sake of it, but it has real, genuine business value. Thank you very much.

[00:40:56] Preben: Yeah. Thank you. It was great.

[00:40:59] Naomi: The Future is Human is brought to you by Mews, a cloud-based hospitality platform. If you want to learn more about what we do, visit mews.com. And if you'd like to listen to more conversations like this one, find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen. Subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Thanks for listening.