What to expect?
Transcript
[00:00:01] Debora: One of the things that I struggle most with, and I don't think I've quite accepted it yet, is that whole notion of putting agents on your org chart and they're your colleagues. And I'm like, no, they're just algorithms that are running and, like I said, guessing the next words. Like, they're not my colleagues. So, I struggle with that. I struggle with this humanisation, this giving them these human characteristics and traits, because I do think that should stay with us, humans.
[00:00:30] Ella: Welcome to Humans of Mews, part of the Future is Human podcast. I'm Ella McCann Tomlin, and this is where we surface the human stories that often go untold at work. The turning points, the unconventional past, the things that shape who we are beyond our job titles. These are the intimate conversations with people across Mews about their journeys told on their own terms.
[00:00:53] Ella: Welcome to The Future is Human. Today, we're joined by Deb Gallo, who is Mews VP of Talent Development. Deb brings over 25 years of experience helping organisations build the capability of their people, including time at Netflix, where she worked inside one of the most demanding and closely watched people cultures in tech before joining Mews to lead everything from leadership development and skills-based talent systems to AI upskilling and our GenMews graduate program. So, at Mews, Deb's sitting at a really unusual intersection. She's the person responsible for preparing people for our AI-enabled future, whilst also navigating that future herself, building internal AI tools, co-leading a community, helping non-technical professionals learn AI by doing, and also asking the same hard questions about identity and relevance that she helps others through. So, we're gonna explore all of this in what it feels like to be someone very invested in people at a moment when the dominant conversation about AI seems perhaps unbothered by the human cost. So, Deb, thank you so much for joining. I'm really glad to have you here.
[00:02:02] Debora: Thank you. I love being here. It's a little bit confronting when I hear 25 years. I'm like, oh my gosh. I'm getting old, but you know, feeling very young and excited to be here today.
[00:02:12] Ella: Well, you seem too young to be 25 years into your career. We've got a lot to talk about. But before we get really into the kind of heart of the discussion that I know we're gonna have today, I'd like to start somewhere a bit more personal. I know that you've lived all around the world. You've lived in Argentina, Australia, and now the Netherlands, and they're all pretty different places to set up a career and to grow and build a career. What has moving around done to how you see work and also the people that you work with?
[00:02:43] Debora: It's a really good question. And I think, for me, it's opened my eyes, and it's given me a level of empathy that I don't think I could've achieved or have gotten otherwise. I think the constant reinventing yourself, there's something about being yourself, one who has to reinvent yourself in these new places, and also then having a different level of empathy for others who are going through the same thing. And I think it's kind of like a full circle. I keep going back to my parents, and my parents immigrated from Argentina to Australia. And just everything that I go through is just like, oh, wow. Imagine this, like, you know, 40 years ago. And for me, it's just this next level of empathy, I think, is the main thing.
[00:03:27] Ella: That's really interesting because I suppose it must have set you up for this moment in ways that perhaps are easy to look at with hindsight. But I hadn't necessarily made that connection before because we are in this moment of really intense, overwhelming change, which, I guess, mirrors what it might be like to move around and have to kind of culturally acclimate to all the different places you're now living.
[00:03:53] Debora: Exactly. And, also, I think there's an element of understanding yourself in this new environment. Like, who am I in this context that's unfamiliar, and you could say, like, it's an opportunity. Okay. Who do I wanna be in this new environment? And is it an opportunity to kind of, like, just redefine myself a little bit, or do I try and fight and improve who I am and who I was and bring that with me? So, there's always that going on, and I think that is very relevant to what's going on now with AI and all this whirlwind of change that we're going through. There are a lot of similarities.
[00:04:26] Ella: Yeah. Brilliant. The moment for reinvention, potentially. I'm woeful at reinventing myself. So, I go into new environments. I'm like, I'm gonna be this kind of person, and then I fail miserably.
[00:04:40] Debora: I'm the eternal optimist as well, so I always see opportunities. I'm like, it's an opportunity. Yes. But the idea of my moment, I was like, oh my gosh. But I think that's one of the things that I think really helps in these moments is that the optimism and that trying to see and find the, okay, this is a moment of opportunity, of amplifying, of how do I find that? How do I use it for that? That's how I think, anyway. So, sometimes I think it's a bit naive, but, oh, it's helped me get to where I am, so I'm like, we use that.
[00:05:10] Ella: I think I'm a big believer in the fact that hope and optimism are active doing words. It's not just a naive belief that everything is gonna be rosy in the future. It's like, if we want to make change happen, we have to lean into hope as an active thing because we have the ability to change things through behaving in that way. If we're too defeatist, it won't happen.
[00:05:34] Debora: Yes. Exactly. And there's that sense of agency as well that, you know, comes with that, I think, is super important.
[00:05:39] Ella: I'm aware that you recently got your permanent residency in the Netherlands, and that there was years of uncertainty that preceded that. Do you think that also plays into any of this, leaning into change and having to sit with uncertain times? Has that experience had an impact on how you show up to work?
[00:05:59] Debora: For me, it's been, like, a really interesting journey in terms of being an immigrant in the Netherlands. And I know that it comes with a whole bunch of privileges that other immigrants don't have or aren't afforded, but I think, for me, it's been, like, a whole bunch of years of feeling like you being an other in this environment, and trying to fit in and trying to find, okay, this is my forever place. You know, my family's here. My wife is Dutch. So, trying to find, okay, this is the place. But also with that looming behind me, of, like, maybe it won't happen. Maybe I won't be able to stay. So, there's been this constant stress. I'm, amazingly, so excited. I passed my language exams, which I was very proud of, but my kids rightfully told me that, no, I still don't know how to speak the language. So, it's like, thank you very much. Nothing is more humbling than a child.
[00:06:52] Ella: Fascinating.
[00:06:53] Debora: But that also it's full circle moment, where and going back to that empathy point that I remember when I moved to Australia, and my mom didn't know how to speak English, and she was never really fluent in English. And my feelings in that moment of embarrassment, of shame, and all these things that I now look back and go, oh, wow. Gosh. I can't take it back. It is what it was. But I've been in that position now of being the mom that doesn't know how to speak at school, the mom that your kids sometimes go, no, I want, you know, I want mama to take me to this event. I was at it, and I'm like, gosh. Now, I'm that person that you know? So, for me, it's this whole journey of these personal things that I've brought with me that getting to this point is like, okay, that's one thing. I've still got a lot of things to work on, but that constant empathy and just that circle back moment, it's so front and centre for me right now, but there's a lot of relief. Yes.
[00:07:51] Ella: Well, I'm glad. Congratulations. And, yeah, it's so interesting that you're experiencing what you experienced as a child, but kind of now from the parental lens. And just on the kind of topic of feeling like the ground shifting under you, when did you first feel that sensation about AI? We're gonna get into AI in this conversation. But you know, I know for you personally, you have built your career around something that is changing really quickly. When did you first start to feel that uncertainty?
[00:08:23] Debora: I remember it clearly. It was this one moment. I was in Argentina for Christmas with my family, and my brother was there, and my niece was there, and my sister-in-law said something along the lines of, oh, my niece, she actually prefers to chat with her AI friend for a range of reasons and stuff. And I was like, what? Until that moment, I just hadn't paid any attention to it. I was like, oh, I don't have time. I'm too busy. I'm doing what I'm doing. That moment stayed with me. And then I came home, and I'm like, maybe I should try this out. So, I opened ChatGPT, which I hadn't used that much, and I just said, “Hey, ChatGPT, I've got a headache. What do I do?” And it replied, oh, maybe, you know, maybe you should go outside for a walk, and have you had enough water, and, you know, you've been working really hard and blah. And I was like, oh my God. I wasn't shocked at what it said. I was shocked at the feelings that it conjured for me. Like, what came up was I felt heard. I felt listened to. I felt like, oh, it's a friend. And that shocked me that I could feel those things from a machine. I was like, oh, holy moly. Like, I can't control that. That just happened. And this is dangerous. This is exciting, but this is scary. And, like, I just didn't know what to think. I think that was the moment for me, like, okay, I need to look into this. This is something different to what I've come across before.
[00:09:44] Ella: And what was the sort of next thing that you did? Because I suppose there's a, oh, okay, this is interesting. I'm gonna lean straight into this. Or there's a potential response, which is to pull back and go, this is scary. I don't like this. This feels anthropomorphised in a way that I don't like.
[00:10:00] Debora: No. It was at that point. It was like a sliding door. Like, you can either go that way and go, oh, this is ridiculous, crazy. I don't wanna have a bar of it. Or, actually, let me just test this out a little bit more. And that's when I started going, okay, let me just try basic stuff, like rewriting emails and things like that. I'm like, okay, this is interesting. And then it just opened up the doors. What if I can create a training module? What if I could do this? And it just kept allowing me. It just kept enabling me to do all these things, and I'm like, oh, wow, okay. Now, I get the kind of, like, the hype. Now, I get and for me, it was I can see the depth of my expertise, how I can amplify it. I'm like, I can do so much right now. All these things that I thought, like, that were impossible, like, 20 years ago when I started my career, I was suddenly, you know, just doing it in an afternoon, and I was like, okay, everything's changing. If I can do this, then others are doing it, then my profession and the stuff that I do at work is, I wouldn't say, in danger, but it's available to everyone. So, then that took me down the path of, okay, what is my role? If I'm doing this, everyone's doing this. And then I started learning on my own, and then I'm like, well, if I'm teaching myself and my job is to teach others, but I'm teaching myself, and I'm not relying on anyone teaching me, I'm like, wow, that's interesting, I don't need people like me anymore. So, yes, it's been a kind of, like, a roller coaster of realisations of ups and downs.
[00:11:28] Ella: Yes. And, obviously, you've been in talent development for a super long time, including time at Netflix, which I think is, I'm not speaking, I've turned, hopefully, and people know that it's a pretty fierce culture around hiring, firing people, work in general. Do you think that prepared you for this moment, having lived in that kind of, and worked in that fierce environment where you've really got to be on your toes all the time, or does this feel like something completely new?
[00:11:58] Debora: In terms, I think the pace that is consistent across the bottom and what my previous experiences have, I guess, given me is that resilience to keep trying and to keep kind of, like, moving forward. And that's what I've noticed is that when I engage with AI, it can be very easy to just go, oh, this is rubbish, and just, like, I don't have time. But there is a tenacity, there's a willingness that I keep trying. I keep trying. I do think that comes from, like, all the past experiences. There's another element of wanting to be the driver, wanting to be in control of this. And I think those experience also, you know, that comes to the surface of in what way can I control this situation? In what way can I have some agency here? Like, how can I be the one who's driving this instead of this driving me? So, I think it's from that perspective, it's what comes through for me. It's like, okay, so how can I use this for my benefit? How can I drive this? How can I be the one who's leading instead of it leading me? Which is, I think, the thing that we struggle with. Because a lot of times, you can just kind of, like, let yourself go with it and just go with the flow and not really challenge it much, if that makes sense.
[00:13:09] Ella: Yes. Do you have a, because I have the same experience, like, we both use AI a fair amount. But I think it's safe to say you're more of an expert than I am. You're building apps on the weekend. But there is this tension between sometimes, I will try and get it to help me with something, and I will go, this is taking too long. It would've been quicker for me to just do this. I know my voice. I know what I wanna say. Why am I going back and forth? And maybe part of that resistance is also me wanting to hold on to things like my voice and what I consider to be my mastery and the humanness wrapped up in that. And so I guess I'm interested in the tension between what mastery starts to feel like now. Does it look like mastering tools in a different way? Do you feel like you're losing something that you spent 20-odd years building?
[00:14:01] Debora: I do think about that a lot. Like, I question myself, like, how much of this is me, and how much of this is my thinking, and how much of this is the machine just regurgitating the stuff that it has learned? And I think it's, for me, I try to put a little bit of space in between, like, this is what I tell myself is okay, stop a little while. Just think, okay, how would you do this without AI? Okay. Like, what do you really wanna get out of this? Or what is it that I know? Like, okay, bring that in instead of just going in blind. So, I think there's that piece of I know what I know, and I'm very confident that I know what I know, and I wanna keep using that. And I'm confident that what I know is, you know, really valuable. So, reminding myself of that and bringing it to the forefront. But then at the same time, there's this other element that I do question, like, what is my craft changing? And then I'm like, yeah, it is, actually. I'm developing other skills, and my craft is changing, and the profession is changing. And that's also scary and exciting at the same time. So, I'm like, okay, great. The way that I think of it, that is okay, let me shape this. Let me shape the type of, you know, L&D in terms of the person that I'm becoming. Like, let me, again, be in control. I think there's something about being in control, but let me jump in and direct this. And I'm the one who is actually shaping and creating the new version of what a talent development leader looks like, or what it means to use what it looks like. The constant struggle for me is the being in control. I think it's becoming key now.
[00:15:34] Ella: Not to turn this into a therapy session. Learning some things about ourselves through this conversation. That thing of being in control, do you feel genuinely in control? Or, you know, there's a part of me that thinks there's a doom and gloom part of me that thinks, oh, in the worst possible scenario, I'm outsourcing my expertise, my brain. I'm feeding it into something that is going to overtake it, perhaps. And I've personally had a bit of a journey with this, and actually, I've changed my view, I think, on that. And I think that gives AI too much credit in some ways. But I'm wondering where you are on that sort of spectrum. Do you think it's possible to stay in control, or do you think that's a sort of fallacy that you're telling yourself to?
[00:16:21] Debora: I mean, the way that I, what I keep telling myself is, this is a machine that's just guessing the next word. I'm like, remember that. When this tells you anything, it's guessing the next word from a whole bunch of possible words, and it's then telling you that. So, when I read something, I'm like, okay. And I need to keep reminding myself that this isn't a sentient being who's actually thinking and rationalising and coming up with novel things. I'm like, and I know I'm really making this really basic for myself, and maybe that's just the way that I cope. But I'm like, this is a machine that's learned a whole bunch of stuff, and it's just regurgitating the next possible word in this sentence to me. Is that what I'm happy with? Is that, like, what? I'm the one who's bringing the creativity. I know that I can take this further. So, I think that's my way of, I guess, of dealing with it in a way, of just reminding myself because it's very easy to get lulled into, oh, this thing thinks and knows, but I keep telling her, how is it intelligent? Like, it's a different type of intelligence to what I bring. So, I don't know how long that's gonna last for. At some point, it might change. Things are moving so fast, but that's kind of like how I think about it now.
[00:17:27] Ella: Really interesting. And I think, also, it's difficult because of the discourse around it. I read a lot on this, and I know that you do too. And there is a lot of quite binary, I guess, on the one hand, this is gonna be super intelligent. This is what's gonna happen. It's gonna surpass humans. For the first time in history, we're gonna have sentient beings that are more intelligent than us. And that might mean utopia, or it might mean we all die. And then there's a school of thought that is, like, ignore it. It's a bubble. It's not gonna be a thing. Or maybe it will be a thing, but it won't have all of this power that we're sort of imbuing in it. And we have the power to say, no, I'm not interested in that. That seems to be the sort of binary discourse. Obviously, we're in tech, and a lot of the discourse that I think gets shared around and that gets engaged within our world is more of the former, more of the Jack Dorsey essay, that is, jobs are gonna change completely, or there's only gonna be two or three jobs. Shopify CEO's memo telling teams that if you can't prove that AI can't do a job, you know, we're not gonna hire any humans until, you know, we're going completely AI first because we're doubling down on this. And I think some of those conversations are being treated as visionary, but I'm interested in what your view is on them.
[00:18:46] Debora: I do struggle with that. And one of the things that I struggle most with, and I don't think I've quite accepted it yet, is that whole notion of putting agents on your org chart, and they're your colleagues, and my colleagues are all these agents and stuff. And I'm like, no, they're just algorithms that are running and, like I said, guessing the next words. Like, they're not my colleagues. So, I struggle with that. I struggle with this humanisation, this giving them these human characteristics and traits, and things like that, because I do think that that should stay with us, humans. That should stay on our side. It was funny because I was in Dallas a couple of weeks ago, and we were having dinner. And this little dog robot went past, and we were like, what is that? Like, and it had little eyes, and it had little eyelashes that were, like, blinking, and it got to part of the road where it couldn't keep going because there was roadwork happening, and it was just standing there. I was like, oh my God. The little robot dog can't keep going. Like, and we were all like, oh my God, the little, like, what's he gonna do? So, in a way, we were humanising it, and then that made me think, I'm like, we inherently want to humanise these things and have empathy, and I wanted to cross the road and help the poor little robot. Like, no. And then it just, like, turned around and went back where it came from. I was like, where's it going? Like, who owns that little robot?
[00:20:10] Ella: Is this a stray robot dog? Where's the owner?
[00:20:14] Debora: As much as I don't want to apply these characters and traits like you just do, I really struggle with that. Do I want these robots to be my colleagues? Don't I? Is it a feature that, you know, is inevitable? Or I don't know. I don't have the answer, but I do struggle with that. And there's part of me that wants to keep it separate in terms of let's keep the human human and let humanise everything else. And there's nothing wrong with saying it's a robot. I don't have to treat it like a real dog or a real human. Like, it's okay for it to be a robot. It doesn't, but that's difficult as well.
[00:20:49] Ella: It feels like an inherently human thing to do. Right? Like, why do we also kind of anthropomorphise things like cuddly toys? Right? As soon as you put a face on something or as soon as you give something characteristics that we identify to be living, breathing, even if we know something isn't, we think about it differently. And it's also, I don't know if you've seen, there was a video that did the rounds, gosh, maybe it was a year ago now, where there were some college students who were, like, kicking a robot. And it was a sort of humanoid-looking robot. And I was like, this makes me really uncomfortable. I don't like this at all. I don't like people destroying things, full stop. You know, if they were smashing a telephone box, I wouldn't like that either. But there was something about them kicking a humanoid-looking thing that made me really uncomfortable, and also made me think, how does that translate into human interaction if you're…
[00:21:47] Debora: So fascinating. You know? Because you know what that reminds me of? It reminds me of those videos that came out, like, not long ago, about those robots trying to dance. And I'm like, they look pathetic. And then I was thinking, I would never say that to a dancer who's, you know, trying to dance, but I had no hesitation saying, yeah, those stupid robots. Like, no wonder. Like, they wouldn’t get anywhere. Look, that can't even move. Like, they're tripping over themselves. Like, it's a really fascinating thing, like, what we separate and what we don't, and what we humanise and what we don't. And I think that's the struggle that we're in right now. It's like this thing, is it my friend? Can it be my friend? If I'm feeling lonely, does it, you know, fill a void? If it does, then what does that say about me or not? And, you know, you can do your head in, like, just thinking through all that. So, I don't have an answer, but I think it's such an interesting moment that we're living in right now.
[00:22:36] Ella: Yes. And I think part of what is interesting about the dancing robot example is that it's ludicrous for a robot to dance because a robot can't feel joy. And that, for me, is what dancing is. It's like babies dance before they know how to talk, you know, it's an innately human kind of instinct to dance. And so I think that's also an interestingly kind of weird thing. Like, why would you? There's no function to it for a non-human being, maybe an animal, but there's no function to it otherwise. And so that's also part of my discomfort. This is only one part. But part of my discomfort with some of the memos that you see flying around from the tech CEOs is that I think there's something being flattened about what it means to be a human at work and what value humans bring at work. And for instance, management is beyond in the Jack Dorsey memo, it was very middle management is about passing messages, and we're not gonna need to do that anymore. And I was like, is that what management is?
[00:23:34] Debora: No. I agree, but I think that's always been there, though. It's just been masks as different things, and it's been that we've always done that to some degree and in some way. I think now it's just more visible. But if I think about the ways that we dehumanise people at work and all that kind of stuff, like, we've always, unfortunately, done that. Now, it's just got another avenue to that's happening quicker, that can justify maybe that it just, that's how I think about these. And, also, thinking about the type of organisations that they lead and how they treat people, they don't have great track records. And I think that is what we think forward, that is what's gonna continue to differentiate, you know, the employers, the founders, the people who really do value humanity, and that we'll hopefully win in the end. As much AI and tech that you can have, those are the organisations that are gonna win. So, hopefully, I mean, that's again my optimism.
[00:24:29] Ella: But you said something previously when we spoke about this a lot, but there's a shame attached to potentially not being on board or not being seen to be on board or having a critical view, especially, I think, in tech. And even though we don't work in an organisation that is like some of the organisations, who are going really anti-human, let's say. But how do you navigate that, and where do you think that sort of shame comes from?
[00:24:55] Debora: It's funny because since I said that, I'm now, I don't know, things are just moving so quickly, but there's now a part of me that's thinking, actually, there's a strength in fighting back. And there is something, you know, there's a there's something really powerful in pushing back. And that's the struggle. Like, there's the shame of I'm not on board. I'm behind. I need to be, you know, showing and doing and learning and constantly pushing myself. So, that's one part of it. And then there's the other part of, actually, no, I don't have to. I wanna be me. I want the human part of me, you know, what I'm going to value, and I'm not gonna get on board and stuff. And I think it's kind of like a pendulum that's swinging, and I think, and I don't know how fast, but there is a bit of a swing back to the pushback. I'm like going in between, a bit like, okay. And it all goes back to, I think, back to the control. Like, where is my agency? How do I have more agency if I jump on board and get ahead of it and try to control it, or if I push back and rebel, and I'm part of the other side, that I do also have to be realistic that I work in organisations and I have worked in organisations where the resistance doesn't win, and that's the reality of organisations. So, that's also something that you need to come to terms with. You work in an organisation. The organisation has a view, a strategy, a direction. If you don't like it, well, then there's the door.
[00:26:24] Ella: Yes. That's the sort of reality of corporate life in many ways. And at the same time, I think, I agree with you that there's an option to do both in a way. There is this sort of middle. The middle never sounds sexy. But I guess what I mean is that there's a sort of and both that can happen. That is, we can challenge it because, actually, if you are going to do something, you want challenging voices in the room. Even if everyone ultimately agrees that you're gonna do the thing, you want the challenging voices to help guide, how are we gonna do this? What are the consequences? Like, what are the trade-offs? If everybody is, rah, rah, this can only be a good thing, but that doesn't actually necessarily lead to the best decision-making. And at the same time, you're having to upskill and learn and get yourself in a place where you know what you're talking about about it.
[00:27:11] Debora: And I think now that you say that, what suddenly, you know, becomes clear to me is I think the power is in that middle. For me, that's where I feel most powerful because that's where I have the option to say, “Well, do I choose this or this in this situation?” Like, how am I leading? Like, what's my approach? And I think that's probably the place where I do feel most in control.
[00:27:30] Ella: And we've seen a lot of companies move in relation to AI. Like, there's been some loud bets. Klarna, I think, laid off a load of people, put lots of AI into customer service, and then brought humans back because that hadn't worked, so that they wanted it to work. Salesforce is hiring again. They froze headcount, you know, on the basis of AI. And then you have the sort of IKEA's of the world who maybe forge their own path a little bit and reskilled a load of people in interior design consultancy away from customer support rather than laying them off. So, there are lots of different things happening here. And lots of people, obviously, are making loud statements and then backtracking on them. How do you see how we navigate this? Because, ultimately, it seems like nobody really can predict the future, even those who are saying this is all inevitable. How do you sort of forge a path through all of that noise?
[00:28:26] Debora: I mean, I think, and this is one of the things that I love about Mews and that I love about, you know, where we work, is that there is heart to the organisation. There's, like, a soul to the organisation. And as much as we know that, yes, all forces are, you know, are pointing us in that direction of the go, go, go, of, well, you know, we're going, we're investing, we're throwing all our ducks into the ring. We still do it with the people in mind and with, you know, that heart and that soul, and I think that's what is really key. Well, I think there's also, if I think about the examples like IKEA and the other companies, even Duolingo, like, they went all in, and then they're backing out, and I think there is some stroke burning of, okay, we need to say that we're all in, we need to, there's a lot of paybacks for being the frontrunner and showing that, and I think there's a lot of courage that's needed to go against that. I don't think there'll be a lot of companies that have that courage to go against it. They might have, like, pockets of courage in the organisation, but I don't think that there's gonna be a lot of that coming. At some point, it may sway, but we're all you have to go that way. I think what we can do is do it in a way that is true to, like I said, our heart, our values, our constitution, and put that at the forefront. It's difficult because you have so many moments where you're like, okay, do I actually agree with this? Do I actually believe in this approach? Do I think this is the way that we should be doing it? So, how do I make it, you know, a little bit more in line with some of those, you know, what my core beliefs are? You know? And for me, I believe in people. I believe that people can develop. I believe people can grow, and I believe people can change. That's unchangeable, and that's what drives everything. I believe people have the potential to be, and do, and change. So, that's where I come at it from. Like, okay, how do we do this in service of that, of allowing people to be, you know, change, grow? It's not always easy.
[00:30:28] Ella: These are the really difficult discussions, right, that I think exist between the binaries. Like, how do I exist in tech and use AI and still retain my conscience and my ethics around it? How do we implement it in a way that still values humans and isn't sort of sociopathic? How do we hold our values in this kind of moment? In a very different way, a completely different thing, but I think a similar boomerang happened around DEI. Right? Like, everybody said they were doing it. Everybody said they cared about it. Everyone was like, what are you doing about it? That popped. And suddenly, it was like, this is old news now. Nobody cares about that, actually. And the companies that really held the line were clearly the companies who had implemented it, not because of the fad element to everybody else is doing this, or everyone's putting out PR about it, but this is in line with our values.
[00:31:22] Debora: I think that's the thing. Right? It's hard right now. I think it's super hard to play that long game when you have less and less, I guess, just certainty of what that's going to be. So, you're going in a lot more, I guess, blind than what we were before, where you could kind of predict, or you had a bit more certainty about, you know, that way that long game was gonna go. Now, it's even harder. So, hence, the risks of putting, you know, of pushing back, of having the courage to go different because you're like, well, just I'm just not that sure that it's gonna pay off. I was not as sure as I was before.
[00:31:54] Ella: Yes. Absolutely. And you also said to me before, but again, I don't know if this is something that shifted for you in the recent weeks. I don't know if your worldview has changed in the past few days. But you said, I'm gaining a lot, but I'm also losing a lot. And I'm interested in, at this stage, in your journey with this, what you feel you've gained and also what you feel you've had to lose or grieve.
[00:32:20] Ella: I still feel that, and I feel that every day. I think as I sharpen my skills, as I get more into it, I realise, gosh, I can do so much. Like, this is really amplifying, you know, what I can do, and that's an amazing feeling. But at the same time, I'm like, okay, if I'm able to do all this, and I'm becoming, in a way, like self-reliant and more kind of like siloing myself because I can do everything. Then I'm like, okay, wait, what am I losing? It's that connection with others. It's that collaboration, that stuff that I needed more of. Now I'm like, well, I don't need that as much anymore. So, that for me is one thing. And I'm very conscious of that. Okay. This has a potential for me to just, you know, really isolate myself and just do everything, and that's not… what brought me joy before was community and others. So, I'm balancing that with, I guess, reconnecting with community outside of work, at work, like, doing other things, bringing people together. And I think that's helping me balance the, okay, I'm feeling a loss of some sort of connection, but I'm trying to build this connection somewhere else because I think it's key. I think it's what's going to sustain all of us, sort of, like, moving through this. So, that's one thing. And then there's the whole skills thing. Like, the other day, I created a skill in Claude. It's an instructional design skill, you know, super simple. It looks at what you create and tells you how to create, you know, an amazing training program. Whereas years ago, that was really difficult. You had to get an expert to help you in design, and that was why we were so proud of being, you know, an L&D expert because we brought that expertise. And, like, I just offloaded that and offered it to everyone. And I was like, oh, okay. So, I've just kind of, like, shaved a bit of my expertise off and just put it out there. And that's the piece that I'm like, okay, so that's gone. I can't say that, you know, I own that or that's the thing that I bring because now it's not. So now, I need to go, okay, what is it that I bring, and how do I balance that? It's constant. Like, there is that feeling of more and more things eroding, more and more things falling off because you go, oh, everyone's doing this and that, which before required an expert in L&D. Now, it doesn't. They're like, oh, okay. Like, what do I do now?
[00:34:35] Ella: What does an L&D expert look like now?
[00:34:37] Debora: Exactly. What value do we bring? There's always been that question about value, but I think now it's even more like, whoa, what value do you bring? It's challenging, but I think it's happening across the board. I think, and it's not just in our profession. I think all professions are probably feeling that to some degree in terms of that shift. The ground is shifting, like, what do you bring? What's the value? You know, how do you rebuild? I don't know. I think we're all figuring it out.
[00:34:58] Debora: And you're not just navigating this yourself, obviously. You've got this dual role because you're having to ask yourself these existential questions about talent development and your role and your personal expertise, which is kind of an internal journey. And then you're also one of the people, maybe not the only person in the organisation, but you're one of the people in the organisation who has to sort of hold the banner for this and has to guide the organisation through it as well. What does that relationship look like? Does it feel complicated? Is it hard to be the sort of standard bearer for some of our AI implementation whilst you're struggling with it yourself?
[00:35:38] Ella: I mean, I think going back to what drives me and what's the core and that core belief of people being amazing. People, if you give them the right environment, if you provide the right support, if they're in a place where, you know, they are primed to do their best, people can do amazing things, like amazing. And for me, that's the core. So, I think about it as an amplifier. Like, we're giving people an amplifier. We're giving people something that's gonna help them be even better, whether it's here, whether it's somewhere else, in their next role, wherever they go. And now's the moment to really tap into it and use this as an amplifier. So, that's kind of like my guiding view, but I'm not oblivious to the fact that, yes, it does mean that, like I said, for a lot of people, it's shaving off a whole bunch of areas of things that they're experts at, and that leaves them with very little. But I try and focus on, okay, well, let's look at what you can build and what you can become rather than what you're losing and what you're no longer. It's not easy, but someone has to, like, be the naive slash optimistic one.
[00:36:43] Ella: I'm gonna shave naive off of that. I think your optimism is a very useful tool in this. Just to go slightly back to something you said about community and loneliness, there is a bit of a sort of loneliness epidemic that is happening and has been happening for the past few years. COVID didn't help that. Not all of us in the industry, actually. There have been lots of return-to-work mandates, but Mews is remote-first, even though we do a lot of in-person. Do you think that's actually the fact that we're remote first amplifies that potential isolation in a way that you're talking about?
[00:37:18] Debora: Yes. I think it does. I mean, I think it definitely plays in favour of, I guess, loneliness. You need to really be intentional about, you know, the connections and the relationships in the community. And for some people, that comes really easily and, you know, energises, and for others, it's more difficult. So, I think there's a look at myself, like, I don't go into the office very often, I work from home most of the time, and it's very easy for me to just keep going into my cave, into my cave, into my cave, like, really and not go out and talk to other people for a long time. So, I think, yes, being remote definitely does kind of amplify the possibility of that loneliness, and we need to be a lot more intentional about the connection and the relationships. On the one hand, it adds another layer because, yes, I get into work mode. I do more. I do more. I'm really focused. I'm like, and I don't need anyone else. But on the other hand, I'm like, well, I could use it as a pseudo-friend, like, when I had the headache. Like, it didn't feel nice. I don't use it for that, but I don't condone, you know, people who do use it for that because if it does meet that need, you know, who's to say that that's helping someone and it's helping someone in a moment that they need it, that they don't have any access to anything else? So, I don't know.
[00:38:40] Ella: These are so complicated. I, not to go too far off track, I don't know if you know Esther Perel, the relationship therapist who has a..
[00:38:48] Debora: Yes. Yeah.
[00:38:49] Ella: Okay. Great. I thought you would. She has a recent episode, I don't know if you've listened to it, where there's a man who's fallen in love with his AI.
[00:38:57] Debora: Ooh, no. I should listen to it.
[00:38:59] Ella: And shout out to Esther. This is a really interesting episode. And I really struggled. I really struggled with it. It's kind of a solo call with her because, obviously, it's not a couple's therapy session, and it's not in-person. And at the same time, they get her on to talk. I struggled with it on lots of different levels. But on the one hand, as you say, there's lots of context with this man and what he's going through and his loneliness and all of that kind of stuff. And on the other hand, the fact that he's completely anthropomorphised this AI and sort of believes that she has feelings for him when she doesn't have feelings. She doesn't exist unless he turns her on. You know? That's not what it's like to be in a relationship with humans. Right? They have other lives outside of our lives, and they push back, or the stakes in a relationship with a human, right? They could leave. They exist.
[00:39:51] Debora: I agree. Like, it's troubling in a way, but the other part of me goes back to I felt really understood in that moment when I had a headache and this little voice, because I was on voice mode, spoke to me, and there was something inside that felt much better. Like, there was something that happened inside. I don't know. Maybe I'm a weirdo saying this, but for me, so that's why I'm like, there is something there.
[00:40:17] Ella: I think you're not, but I think that's the danger, that it's not, that you're not. It's a normal human response to being soothed, but I think that's dangerous. I think my view is that's dangerous.
[00:40:29] Debora: Yeah. This can be like a slippery slope at some point. Maybe, like, this is, woah, a bit scary.
[00:40:36] Ella: Yes. I started to think, and I don't want to sort of make it seem like I am being disrespectful to this man, but I started to think, he's basically got an imaginary friend. And is that dangerous? Is it bad if a child has an imaginary friend? But it is that. It's not. So, where's the line on it being helpful versus dangerous? That's a whole conversation. It's a conversation we could have all day, probably.
[00:40:59] Debora: We could get a chat.
[00:41:02] Ella: I know that we're coming to time, really. And I just wanted to ask you a final question. Is there any advice that you would give to a leader right now about how we stay human through this moment? Because I think you're modelling that really well.
[00:41:19] Ella: Yeah. Well, thank you for that. I appreciate. For me, what's really important as a leader, you know, always, you're leading like, you're someone that others are looking to, and you're providing something more than just direction on tasks. And reminding yourself of the responsibility of that and what that means, I think, is really key. And especially now, like I said, where people can become isolated, can go into this, or can be very anxious, or can be very excited. Like, there's a lot of emotions, and that's hard to manage as a leader because sometimes, I'm like, oh, it's, you know, too many emotions. This is hard to manage. But I think now more than ever, as leaders, we do need to be more attuned to what's happening to our teams and to our people as people and asking and not being afraid to open that conversation. Also, I share what's happening with you. Like, I'm very open with my team that that, you know, I wrote the thing about L&D being dead and feeling all these things, and I think that's part of just what we're all going through and sharing that is important as well. So that's, I guess, remembering the humans, and what you're going through and sharing that has, you know, goes a long way to just bringing people together and helping them through it as well.
[00:42:32] Ella: Fantastic. Yeah. The authenticity of, like, leaning into how you're actually feeling rather than trying to pretend that you're not feeling those things, too.
[00:42:41] Debora: We're all going through it in some way or other, so.
[00:42:43] Ella: That, I think, is a lovely place to end. Thank you so much, Deb. I really enjoyed speaking to you. As always, it was great having you on the show, and I'll see you soon.
[00:42:56] Outro: The Future is Human is brought to you by Mews. If you want to learn more about what we do, visit mews.com. And if this conversation resonated, you can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen. Hit subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. Thanks for listening.
