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[00:00:00] Robert-Jan Woltering: Everything we do, everything we think oozes, breezes Amsterdam. And I think that really sets us aside from some of the other hotels in the city, which are a little bit more branded, let's say.
[00:00:23] Matt Welle: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another Matt Talks. I invited someone who I find very inspirational, just based on his resume and the places that he's worked in and lived in, and he's experienced being a hotelier in all these different cultures. But the reason I found him is really because of the Michelin Guide. So, he is the only hotel that has achieved with his team to get 3 Michelin Keys. Michelin launched the hotel kind of framework a couple of years ago. And in Amsterdam, to get three Michelin Keys means you're doing something very, very special. So, I asked Robert-Jan Woltering if he wants to join me and just talk about hospitality, and what can we teach a new generation of hoteliers about the legacy of hospitality? Thank you for joining me today.
[00:01:05] Robert-Jan Woltering: Pleasure to be here, Matt. It's interesting that you find me through the Michelin Keys.
[00:01:10] Matt Welle: So we, my husband and I, are obsessed with fabulous hotels because every holiday, we book a nice hotel, and it's an investment in my development as a hotelier. So, we waited for that list to come out because we're so curious. Whenever the Michelin restaurant guide comes out, we're like, who's won, who's lost? It's an interesting dynamic, and I love that they launched this for hotels. And it was incredible to see that you had three Michelin stars, Michelin Keys, I think it is, right?
[00:01:36] Robert-Jan Woltering: Absolutely.
[00:01:37] Matt Welle: Yes. Sorry. I need to get that right.
[00:01:38] Robert-Jan Woltering: We do have two stars. Actually, three stars because we got two stars and a green star in Flore. Our amazing restaurant. [00:01:47] Matt Welle: Yeah. Does it change anything for you when you find out that you are the number one hotel in Amsterdam? Can I call it that?
[00:01:55] Robert-Jan Woltering: I think you can because we are the only hotel not only in Amsterdam, not only in the Netherlands, but in the Benelux with three Michelin Keys. And that, of course, is an honor to receive that. And it means we're doing something right. And I think, I know more or less what we do, right? But there's so many other hotels, so I don't want to sound pretentious. Modesty, I think, is very important in our world. So, what we do, definitely, right is the connectivity to the city. We are the home of original Amsterdam luxury. That's our baseline. So, everything we do, everything we think oozes, breezes Amsterdam. And I think that really sets us aside from some of the other hotels in the city, which are a little bit more branded, let's say. And, of course, that unique DNA that I think drives Michelin choosing their three keys. [00:02:52] Matt Welle: Because they look for, I think, heritage. They talk about service.
[00:02:56] Robert-Jan Woltering: Authenticity. [00:02:57] Matt Welle: Authenticity.
[00:02:58] Robert-Jan Woltering: Yeah.
[00:02:59] Matt Welle: And it does feel like you've got those nailed down. Whenever I experience it, and I go to Freddy's a lot for this. Freddy’s is the Heineken bar that you have. And I think it's such a great place to have a social meeting, but with a business partner in a Brown cafe, and it just really meets kind of what I look for in a casual business meeting. And I always have such a wonderful experience there. But I'm wondering, how do you create a culture where, when you're not around, they deliver that kind of experience? [00:03:26] Robert-Jan Woltering: Yeah. That's something that started about 130 years ago, he says, in all modesty. I think this hotel has always been on the forefront of the Amsterdam Hotel, so that really helps in positioning the hotel as a leadership hotel in the city. What made the difference is when we started to think about the renovations, and we've just been fully refurbished, so that also really helps. I think the refurbishment was done with a lot of taste and respect, again, for the city by Nicemakers and Amsterdam decorative specialists, and they've done a tremendous job. So, that gave us, again, our unique USP, the restaurants, Flore, the two Michelin stars, Marie with that amazing terrace. So, what I always say, this place is a destination on its own. If you don't know, like, you come home tonight to your husband, and you think, what am I going to do? And the idea is you go to De L’Europe because something is always happening there. You will always see some of your inner circle there in one of the restaurants or in one of the bars. There's always a seat for you in one of our restaurants. And then at the end of, so you start with a beer at Freddy's, and you end with a cocktail in our cocktail lounge or speakeasy lounge. And at the end of the night, you come home, you said, “Jesus, darling. That was a wonderful evening, wasn't it?”
[00:05:00] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:05:01] Robert-Jan Woltering: Let's go back tomorrow.
[00:05:02] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:05:03] Robert-Jan Woltering: And that's the kind of feeling that we're trying to create for the Amsterdammers. And what makes it unique, I believe truly unique, is that we are, in our food and beverage restaurants and bars, we're there for the Amsterdam guys, for the hotel guests. What's better to mingle with the local community, and doing that in our restaurants and bars, but also in our beautiful signature shop, in-house, in one of the 14 designer suites. So, the full product is unique. Nobody has that. Nobody has that unique DNA, and that's what I believe Michelin really appreciated, but also Condé Nast Traveler and Leisure. So, that is what really sort of changed the DNA of our staff to be there. But at the same time, I tell my people, guys, keep your originality." It's that mutual respect, right, that I believe is very important and keeping it natural.
[00:06:03] Matt Welle: But do you worry? Because at this point, it's yours to lose, right? So, you're at the top of the game. And if you wanna give your team the freedom, do you worry about losing a key or, like, getting a bad review?
[00:06:15] Robert-Jan Woltering: I don't know. I don't know. Is the Librije worried about losing a star? I mean, of course, and I don't want to compare myself to Librije with 20 years of Michelin star. The thing that nobody will ever take away is that we were the first one in the Benelux with three keys.
[00:06:31] Matt Welle: True.
[00:06:32] Robert-Jan Woltering: So, that's for life. And I think if you motivate your people, you give them autonomy, give them the freedom to act, give them the freedom to be themselves, that will translate into a continuation of the three keys. But there will be more hotels with three keys, I am quite sure. For now, we are the only one, and that's a true honor, but I hope there'll be more.
[00:06:56] Matt Welle: Yeah. Because I grew up in hotels, and there was a thing called brand standards. I worked for Hilton for a long time, and you've worked at several brands. And, you know, on reception desk, it was like you used to greet the guest three times, mention two facilities, look up regularly, there were so many standards that it removed my personality from some of those experiences. So, can you do a luxury hotel really, really well without standards, or are there still standards just not to the extremity that we used to have them?
[00:07:24] Robert-Jan Woltering: Standards are good, but it's more important to give it sense. The famous why.
[00:07:32] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:07:33] Robert-Jan Woltering: Why do I need to do this? Why do I need to call a guest by his name? And the importance is to make sure that your team also feels that and has that experience, which is one of the reasons why all our people stay at least once a year in the hotel as a guest.
[00:07:51] Matt Welle: Every employee?
[00:07:52] Robert-Jan Woltering: Every employee.
[00:07:53] Matt Welle: That's amazing.
[00:07:54] Robert-Jan Woltering: That's the promise at least. But it's so important because what I call the mini stress, right, when you walk into the lobby, do they have my reservation or not? Will my room be nice or not? What will be the VIP amenity? And that mini stress, which is cute, but if you get reassured on every mini stress you have during your stay, that is what creates greatness.
[00:08:23] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Robert-Jan Woltering: And that's what we train our people. But, hey, we're not faultless. It's a people's business. The hardest thing I find is to create that sort of similar experience time after time after time again. That is, yeah, the most difficult thing.
[00:08:43] Matt Welle: You step into a hotel that has a long, long heritage, 130 years, you mentioned. So, how do I recognize this is a Robert-Jan hotel? Like, what's your stamp as a general manager coming in? And how do we recognize that you leave a legacy for yourself?
[00:08:57] Robert-Jan Woltering: You haven't been for a while, but…
[00:09:00] Matt Welle: I didn't know you well enough before, but now I recognize it.
[00:09:03] Robert-Jan Woltering: I think it's the, yeah, it's an interesting question. What makes it a Robert-Jan hotel? I don't think, well, of course, the innkeeper is important, right? We create the stamp. But I do believe it's the natural behavior of our teams. There's nobody who's gonna bow to you, but we all respect each other. We all love our guests, and we have that passion for what we do, all of us. We are so tremendously proud to be De L’Europe, the pearl of Amsterdam, I call it. And I've called it. I arrived three and a half years ago. I've done great hotels. I've done super important vice president roles, but this is my true passion.
[00:09:52] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:09:53] Robert-Jan Woltering: Our inner DNA as hoteliers, we are hoteliers and restaurateurs. We are innkeepers. And so if you have that passion and you can translate that to your people, that's it. Maybe that's the Robert-Jan hotel. I don't know.
[00:10:08] Matt Welle: I think there's a trickle-down effect that happens from the top. And you've clearly, so I love Holland, but the Dutch are not known for hospitality. We're known for directness. We're known for efficiency, but I don't think of the Dutch nation as the most hospitable. But then you've lived in Asia, where I think some of the greatest hospitality happens. [00:10:27] Robert-Jan Woltering: Yeah.
[00:10:28] Matt Welle: How do we bring that kind of hospitality here? How do you make it trickle down? Because you've seen it, but you do hire locally here. And how do you make that come to life?
[00:10:36] Robert-Jan Woltering: I've been working in 14 countries, 5 continents, 27 years abroad in total. The first time I came back here in Amsterdam, some 15 years ago, 16 years ago, I was so shocked. I came back and said, “Who are these people? Why is nobody opening a door for a lady? Why do people always contradict each other? Why do people not let each other, you know, end their speeches?” That bluntness and the directness of the Dutch is horrible, but then again, it's what made us great.
[00:11:14] Matt Welle: Yep.
[00:11:15] Robert-Jan Woltering: I guess that's why we were conquering the world a couple of hundred years, well, hundreds of years ago. And I think that's why we are great also in international luxury hotelry because we tell people when things are great, but we also tell them when things are not so great. I think that makes a difference.
[00:11:36] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:11:37] Robert-Jan Woltering: The secret is to make sure people always keep their face. You know, what they say in Asia, don't lose face. You cannot make people lose face. So, if I have a problem with you, I will discuss that problem, except I will not do it here in the podcast in front of one, two, three cameras, right? We'll do it in a nice room, maybe with a beer or in a more serious environment, but one-to-one. And I think everybody will accept feedback in that sort of field. [00:12:11] Matt Welle: Yeah. Do you worry about the future of the, like, the hotelier? I feel sometimes, and it's maybe because of COVID, that we've taken quite a hit in hotelry, like, where people left the industry and haven't come back. And I go to a lot of hotel schools, and I'm like, oh, it feels different. And I'm like, maybe I'm just getting older. You know, I don't necessarily see what I saw back then, but I worry about the hotel profession and the passion that people have coming out of hotel schools. Do you have that same concern? Or actually, like, no. Actually, it's great. It's as great as it ever been.
[00:12:45] Robert-Jan Woltering: Look. We both have gray hairs. I have a few more, actually. But we don't hold a future. The young guys do. I believe that our future is paved with diamonds, honestly. And it's not because we work very closely together with Hassan. No. I honestly believe that hospitality has a golden future for three reasons. One, more inhabitants everywhere in the world. Two, growth of GDP everywhere in the world. Three, more free time for everybody everywhere in the world. So, we will get more tourism. We will get more travelers. They need more hotels. They need more rooms to stay. The discussion we have here in Amsterdam is a totally non-discussion. Of course, we will not get less tourists. We just need to redirect it in a different way, which is a discussion I'm having often with the teams on Amstel Wijn and also in the city. We have a golden future. I think if you care for people, you will love hotelry, and there's no better industry, and I hate that word, to work in than hospitality. And if you are working in luxury hospitality, it's even a little bit better because usually people have a great time there, and they give you this big smile, and we all wanna be, you know, have big smiles around us.
[00:14:18] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:14:19] Robert-Jan Woltering: I'm not worried about it at all.
[00:14:21] Matt Welle: So happy to hear that.
[00:14:23] Robert-Jan Woltering: Yeah. No. Absolutely.
[00:14:24] Matt Welle: But like, I think optimism.
[00:14:25] Robert-Jan Woltering: Don't you feel the same?
[00:14:26] Matt Welle: I do. I do. You know, I worry about it, but at the same time, I have a huge optimism because I'm like, we can change it. If we see it, then let's acknowledge it, and let's work on it. And I think the only way to fix it is through positivity, and there is great talent out there. We just have to show them. And I think, I remember when I was younger, I didn't know how to upsell because no one had shown me that I should ask, would you like another drink or would you like another thing? Until someone had shown me, I'm like, oh, that actually created a better service, but also revenue. And there is definitely an education that we have to take them on, whereas we just throw them to the front lines. Like, go and serve these customers. And there is a big training element that we don't always get right in hotels.
[00:15:06] Robert-Jan Woltering: True.
[00:15:07] Matt Welle: And it's sometimes a classroom training, and sometimes it's in-person. They have to learn the lesson, and you correct them afterwards. But very rarely today in hotels or restaurants, I see a manager on the floor. And I look for the manager because, like, if the manager is there, I know that someone cares. But I find that a real challenge in hotels, in restaurants today. And maybe I'm just more jaded because I'm older, but I don't think I always am.
[00:15:33] Robert-Jan Woltering: Older?
[00:15:34] Matt Welle: I'm definitely older.
[00:15:35] Robert-Jan Woltering: Why is it? The managers, I think, try to be on the floor. If not, they shouldn't work in our industry, quite frankly, and we shouldn't be afraid to say that, because, hey, if you don't wanna be around your guest, then what are you doing here?
[00:15:53] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:15:54] Robert-Jan Woltering: So, they should be there on the floor. It's the way we interact with each other, the different Gen X, Y, Z, given names. [00:16:05] Matt Welle: I cannot keep up with the letters. Yeah.
[00:16:07] Robert-Jan Woltering: That is changing a lot. So, today, we're just saying upselling, right? [00:16:13] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:16:14] Robert-Jan Woltering: In the good old days, we were serving people. That's it. That's all we did. And when the glass was empty, of course, we proposed to another glass because that's, you know, our job. And now we call it upselling, which is a bit weird. [00:16:26] Matt Welle: And it feels tacky, right? [00:16:27] Robert-Jan Woltering: Very tacky. Yeah. Because then it becomes an obligation. I need to sell you that second drink. No. You want that second drink. [00:16:34] Matt Welle: You're anticipating a potential need.
[00:16:36] Robert-Jan Woltering: And, you know, that's why I look at people in my lobbies, and I tell my people, look at people. We know, we are the best equipped people to know what people need because that's what we do day in, day out, for the, you know, I've done it for the last 40 years.
[00:16:56] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:16:57] Robert-Jan Woltering: Now, you got my age. And so, when you see that, you don't have to upsell, you don't have to ask because you know I know that you want either a great room or that you're looking for the toilet or you just want to impress somebody with a beautiful glass of Coke. Why not? Let's go crazy. Let's have a glass of Coke.
[00:17:23] Matt Welle: I'd like Coke.
[00:17:24] Robert-Jan Woltering: Me too. But then changing that, and for the managers to address that and to address issues with their teams. And, again, here comes the why question. Everybody wants to know why. Why do I need to serve you? Why do I need to do that? Which is, I'm having these discussions, actually, as we talk with the teams and with my management team and with my leadership teams. It is, of course, essential to explain the why. But if everything gets questioned around the why question, who are we? And sometimes, you know, I compare ourselves also to some sort of military organization. If the soldier is going to ask the sergeant, why do I need to shoot? That'll be an interesting battle, right? So, yes, we need to give sense to our actions, but sometimes you just need to do what you need to do. And that makes life also easier. And so, you know, you see that work-life balance and everything becomes more important than it does for you as it does for me, as it does for all my 202 employees or partners, as I call them. But if we question everything, we're not gonna go very far. And that is a point where, you know, there's a point in life where you say, okay, guys, now let's work. Let's play. Let's have fun, and let's not question everything. Why do I get still water and not sparkling?
[00:18:53] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:18:54] Robert-Jan Woltering: Yeah. Because you are a very hospitable company, and you serve the best still water in Amsterdam, right? Amsterdam's Leidseplein. Perfect.
[00:19:03] Matt Welle: I don't think that's right. [00:19:04] Robert-Jan Woltering: I don't know. I'm just kidding. Alright. So yeah, that's my point of view on the industry, on the future, and on leadership. [00:19:13] Matt Welle: Which is hopeful, and it's, I love it. Like, I think we need to approach this industry. It is an exciting place, and it's developing fast, and we have to just get this new generation and show them the way, and hope is the best way to approach it, in my opinion. [00:19:29] Robert-Jan Woltering: Hope? If there's no more hope, it's the day that we die.
[00:19:33] Matt Welle: Yeah. I don't wanna end there, so let me move on.
[00:19:36] Robert-Jan Woltering: Okay. When we stop learning, we die as well. No. We've got the future. It’s brilliant. And also in Amsterdam, I think the future is gonna be very, very good.
[00:19:46] Matt Welle: Can you talk about a time when you saw a team member do something and you're like, that's so good, and I didn't tell them to do that, but they just followed their hearts?
[00:19:56] Robert-Jan Woltering: I'll tell you a story which the CEO of Heineken, Dolf van den Brink, told me when he had his first experience at the De L’Europe. He came in for breakfast, and he was, I believe, living in America. One of our, still their leaders, Monsieur Kostas, a Greek gentleman, fantastic guy, saw him and he said, “What would you really like?” He said, “You know what I would really love is an uncured filet de Américain for breakfast.” Kostas, smart, noted it down. Breakfast was over. In the afternoon, he went to the butcher, bought an uncured filet Américain, and the next morning, went to see Dolf van den Brink and served him that. And that, for me, that's it. That's the essence of what we do.
[00:20:50] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:20:51] Robert-Jan Woltering: The total essence of what we do. And so when you do this, yeah, you achieve greatness.
[00:20:58] Matt Welle: Yeah. And fans for life. [00:21:01] Robert-Jan Woltering: Fans for life. I just came back from the Leading Hotels to the World, that's our brand convention in Bangkok. And just before I left, we had a guest from the Middle East. And we have more guests from the Middle East, but our doorman, Moe, came to me and said, “Oh, Robert, come, come, come. You have to meet this guest.” And I come down and he comes with a I thought it was a Louis Vuitton box. It says ‘For you’. So, I just put down the box, and it opens like a cabinet, but then half door. So half cut, so it opens. And in there was this beautiful, amazing Middle Eastern sailboat, golden.
[00:21:55] Matt Welle: Wow.
[00:21:56] Robert-Jan Woltering: With a picture of the hotel here with the Dutch flag. And on the other side, inside the boat, was a handwritten note, “Dear team, De L’Europe, thank you for your hospitality and your everlasting care, signature of the guest name.” It was like, sometimes, doesn't happen to be very often, but you're, like, speechless. This was like, okay, can we just, I need to take a picture with you. And so I came back home yesterday, and his brother is in the hotel. And we still have that amazing box standing in our lobby because it's such a homage, I believe, to what we do and to the team.
[00:22:40] Matt Welle: Well, it's a recognition that you clearly got something right. And for someone to go out of their way to create that for you...
[00:22:47] Robert-Jan Woltering: It's unreal. [00:22:48] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:22:49] Robert-Jan Woltering: Unreal. I mean, I've never had such recognition, if you like, for the teams. Never.
[00:22:57] Matt Welle: I'm excited to now come back to Hotel De L’Europe.
[00:23:01] Robert-Jan Woltering: Yes.
[00:23:01] Matt Welle: And see the over that experience when I walk in there and, like, I recognize it now. Thank you so much for joining me and sharing some of these experiences and how you think about leadership. Like, it is wonderful to speak to someone who has worked for 40 years in our industry in so many countries, has experienced hospitality, and has taken that back to his homeland to kind of bring our next generation to that level. It's really inspiring. [00:23:25] Robert-Jan Woltering: Absolutely. It's also nice, you know, when you have my amount of gray hairs. It's so nice to go back to your country and give back to the people, to the young students, to my colleagues, but also to society.
[00:23:38] Matt Welle: Yeah.
[00:23:39] Robert-Jan Woltering: I'm also an ambassador against poverty here in this city, which I think is essential to make other people's lives just a little bit better.
[00:23:51] Matt Welle: That's so good.
[00:23:52] Robert-Jan Woltering: If we all do that every day, Mews is gonna be great, De L’Europe is gonna be great, and Amsterdam is gonna be a lot more beautiful.
[00:24:00] Matt Welle: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:24:01] Robert-Jan Woltering: Thank you. It was a pleasure to be here.
